>> yeah, quietly. >> behind the scenes. thank you. you can pay for it. but it's going to be -- it's going to be fascinating. this all goes back to ned lamont running against him in 2006. the democrats in his state voting him out, and lieberman, you talk about revenge being best served up cold, nora o'donnell. he is making democrats pay every day for 2006. >> yeah. he's the skunk at the garden party, the party of joe. i mean, you know, you had so many progressives out there that said let's get rid of this guy. >> the problem is they already did that. >> yeah, right. they tried. >> in 2006, it was a national effort to get rid of joe lieberman. for ned lamont they succeeded. and joe said, okay. >> yeah. >> you know, if they get rid of joe, they don't get 60 votes. and the truth is, we had this thing, we've been talking about it, go for the public option with the trigger. you had joe and olympia snowe in

october. instead the progressives said, we want it all. >> well, harry reid said it. remember, a month ago we were talking about it. actually, it was the third week in october, i think. that weekend you had reid going over to the white house saying, i can get 60 votes for the public option. the press was, like, come on, man. come on. i'm paraphrasing the president of the united states. he was, like, let's go home, declare victory, and reid said no. so it's been another month. >> i think the onus is now on the democratic party and the president of the united states to explain, then, what is in this bill that is great for health care. if there's no public option, there isn't an expansion of medicare for older americans, what is it that brings down health care costs? what's in it that expands coverage to most americans who don't have health care, and why is it worth this huge price tag? >> you know, we could ask joe biden that. the vice president is coming. >> we could ask him about that, about the jobs situation. he has some news this morning he's going to bring to the

table. the vice president is coming in to our studios here in washington in just about two hours in our 8:00 eastern time hour. he'll be sitting right here, and we can talk to him about afghanistan as well. >> no doubt about it. a lot in the news, mika. >> we'll start right there. senate democrats appear ready to strip down another part of health care reform in order to pass the bill by the end of the year. it comes after independent senator joe lieberman threatened to block the plan unless democrats remove a proposal to let people buy into medicare beginning at age 55. despite growing frustration within the party, majority leader harry reid said he is still optimistic about the final vote. >> we have gone over most of the hurdles. it's like a steeplechase race. the last big puddle's in front of us. we'll jump over that and we'll be to the finish line. >> they've led a steeplechase race in nevada. >> now. facing tough criticism from president obama, several banks are planning to step up lending

to small businesses. bank of america, wells fargo and jpmorgan are each planning to kick start new efforts aimed at supporting economic recovery. it follows a white house meeting yesterday and a sunday night interview where the president described wall street executives as fat-cat bankers. here's press secretary robert gibbs. >> i think that the bully pulpit can be a powerful thing. the next time the president job owns you, you'll, i guess, get the same feeling that they have. i don't know if he'll do it in quite the form he did it on "60 minutes," but i think the president -- i think the american people understand that the president was clear. capping a long-running case aimed at the bush administration, a pair of advocacy groups are settling their lawsuit against the executive office after 22 million missing e-mails were found by computer technicians.

the groups are demanding the current white house produce documents from the previous administration claiming bush officials broke the law by failing to install an electronics system to safeguard documents. it is not clear how many of the e-mails will be made public due to concerns over national security. in a major step toward closing the guantanamo bay prison in cuba, today the obama administration will announce its plan to transfer as many as 100 terror suspects to a state prison in illinois. the government will acquire the nearly empty thompson correctional center located about 150 miles west of chicago. supporters say the move will bring thousands of jobs to the area. but critics point to added security concerns. the administration is planning to try guantanamo detainees in u.s. courts while others will be sent to their home countries or to other facilities overseas. that's moving along, at least. >> it is moving along. and mike barnacle, maybe the local community in illinois will

love that. i've got to believe that that's not going to be a political winner in an illinois senate race that a republican can win. >> well, i don't know, joe. i mean, prisons do bring jobs. i mean, in new york state, we're here in new york city this morning, in upper new york state, i mean, the prisons in new york state, small towns employ a lot of people. i don't know that it's going to cut against anyone politically. and certainly in illinois, they're used to the word "prison." you know, had a series of elected officials, that's where they go after they are taken from office. >> well, there is that, i guess. it's a good idea. >> it's one thing to get people from massachusetts and take them to upstate new york. it's quite another to take them from gitmo to illinois. >> dick durbin wanted that. dick durbin said, hello, i raise my hand. take them here. i'll take the jobs in my state. >> dick is out running. >> of course. the poor democrat that's running

against mark kirk is the one that's going to have to justify this. >> well, i think so. i do think, though, it's the movement of them, getting them all in there, that will be very controversial. the question is, joe, after a year or ten months when they've been there, when it dies down, i think maybe barnacle is right at that point. if you keep arguing about it when nothing's happened after a year, i think you might have a problem. but immediately it's going to be a problem for the one running for the democratic nomination. moving on, afghan officials say at least eight people were killed today when a suicide car bomb ripped through the afghan capital. explosions also rocked downtown baghdad this morning. where a series of car bombs killed four people. iraqi officials report at least three blasts went on within minutes of each other near the heavily fortified green zone. as fresh allegations continue to surface, a new "usa today"/gallup poll shows tiger woods' pop later is plummeting. >> we're taking polls on golfers' popularity now. >> let me tell you something, i just would like to invite donnie

back. he has never been more wrong, ever. >> okay. >> the golfer's favorable rating dropped to 33% this week down from 85% in the last poll taken back in 2005. and i find this refreshing, actually. >> let's say for the record, though, it needs to be said that that 33% is a higher approval rating than george bush had the last 18 months of his presidency. >> in the year 2000, woods posted the highest popularity rating in poll history at 88%. hmm. >> all right. >> meanwhile, what may have been his last interview before the scandal broke, the golf star discussed his dedication to his family. >> i want to talk to you about values. it's interesting. in every interview i've seen of you, it is family first and golf second. will it always be like that? >> always. always. >> always. i'm moved by that. that's good. >> you know, i just -- >> that's good. >> -- find it refreshing. >> it is refreshing. a golfer puts his family first.

>> making him a star. >> mike barnacle, are you not moved by that? family first. family first. >> you know, this is a guy -- >> i'm talking. >> -- tiger woods who desperately needs a news event that gets him below the fold of the front page. i can't recall, other than the o.j. stuff, i can't recall such a sustained assault on a person because of the person's own behavior since o.j. simpson. >> wait a minute. a sustained assault? >> yeah, it really is unfair. >> no, it's not unfair -- it's not unfair. >> it is seriously. >> constantly every single day. it's unbelievable. >> right. >> he's the victim, mika. >> right. >> he's the victim. >> i'm sorry, yeah. woo! my bad. >> yeah. >> okay. >> i mean, you know. >> just be quiet. just be quiet. >> o.j. killed a people, so it's not completely analogous. >> allegedly. i just think i'd rather liken this to other sports stars who

end up doing better. and major experts in this field, some who call me and talk to me on the phone saying, tiger will be bigger than ever. >> oh, will you lay off donny deutsche? you're wearing his shoes right now, okay? >> i am. >> so just lay off. what donny said is what everybody said. it was going to be like letterman. his popularity would go. >> it's not just donny, it's other megastars who sort of capitalize on this business in making money and what stardom is. and they thought he would be better than ever. that he would be -- i think america, corporate america is saying no, thank you. >> nobody can tell that half of the mustang ranch clientele would, like, turn on him. >> what is a mustang ranch? what is that? sorry. >> it's better that you don't know, nora. >> it's in "the new york times"

this morning, i think. >> oh, no. sorry. >> it's some legal brothel. >> torn down. >> right. some environmental deal anyway. >> all right. i'm going to move on now, shall we? >> that's great. >> i'm glad pat knows what it is. >> i've read about it, nora. >> go ahead. read this. a recent "usa today" gallup poll found that the president who enjoyed a 64% approval rating at the beginning of the year now has a year-end approval rating of 49%. matching his record low. this is the worst standing in gallup for any modern elected president in his first year in office. wow. >> pat, it's low right now. as you know, presidents' poll numbers go down, they go up. this is what i've tried to figure out at the end of his first year. how has this president managed to defend progressives, conservatives who were against him from the beginning and moderate independents all at the same time? they're all mad at him.

>> indeed they are. and look, there's real failure here, joe. it's a sad thing, for one thing, because he did come in saying look, i'm going to make an effort. bush divided the country. i'm going to unite the country. he tried to do it at the state of the union. he's tried other gestures. his problem is his policies haven't united. not a single republican except arlen specter and the two ladies from maine who supported the stimulus bill. and on health care he's got nobody with him. the policies aren't bipartisan. >> yeah. >> well, it's a difficult climate out there. i do think it's noteworthy that if you compare president obama's approval ratings to every other president in modern history, his are among the worst. so most first-term presidents get more leeway. he faces huge challenges. really the only other person who was close in his first year was reagan. >> what's strange, pat, is i remember him on the day of his inauguration, you saying i have never felt such good feeling -- never seen such good feeling and good will towards any president since jfk. you said, actually, it seems to

me that everybody's more excited about this than they were on jfk. >> there's no doubt about it. i was down there. everybody was excited. they were right on the mall, joe. there were millions of people there just tremendously happy, exuberant mood. i think disappointment is the main -- if you had to take one word of what happens this year, i think it's disappointment, that the hopes weren't realized. >> we'll talk with the vice president about that because the question of the direction where we're going and the fact that it's a long slog may be part of the process here. and we may just hopefully be at the bottom of it. the vice president will be joining us on set at 8:00 eastern time. up next, one issue that's exploding into a potent political weapon. and it has everything to do with winning the female vote in 2010. it's the top story in the politico playbook this morning. plus, do you have a right to privacy for personal text messages on company dime? it's digital-age questioning that's now a constitutional issue. that story in just a few minutes.

but first -- but first, here's bill careins with a check on the forecast. >> good morning, everyone, on this tuesday. rain showers racing through the northeast today. this is the last warm day for a long time from new england through the mid-atlantic. so enjoy today. even though it's cloudy, it's still very warm. 40s and 50s out there today. compare that to 30s and 20s this weekend. we also have significant flash flooding around new orleans this morning. we've had six inches of rain about the last 12 hours. significant flooding. in the middle of the country, you are freezing. minus four windchill in kansas city. minneapolis at minus 16. so we have an arctic blast coming into the northern half of the country. that makes it to the east coast by tomorrow morning. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks.

somewhere in america, there's a home by the sea powered by the wind on the plains. there's a hospital where technology has a healing touch. there's a factory giving old industries new life. and there's a train that got a whole city moving again. somewhere in america, the toughest questions are answered every day. because somewhere in america, 69,000 people spend every day answering them. siemens.

1,200 limousines have been ordered to ferry some of these vips to the summit. that's more than the country owns. >> for [ bleep ] sake. you know, they're importing limos to a climate summit. and you know who the real victim here is, all those european high school kids going to prom this week. they're going to end up throwing up out of a sunroof in smart cars. >> pretty good. welcome back to "morning joe" live from washington, d.c., this morning. time now to take a look at the morning papers. let's start with "the washington post." the big top talker of the morning, senate health bill unlikely to include medicare buy-in. once thought of as a compromise to the public option. >> in "the new york times," china and u.s. at impasse at the

climate talks in copenhagen. beijing is resisting any kind of international monitoring of its emissions levels. >> "wall street journal," citi and wells fargo to repay bailouts marking a milestone for the financial system. hmm. >> and "the seattle times," a big day in the seattle area where later this morning boeing hopes to finally test flight its flew airliner, the 787 dreamliner. it's the fastest selling airplane in history. the company hopes to release it by late next year. there's some good manufacturing news. >> barnacle's reading the papers, too. never mind. >> what are you reading? >> your hometown paper. this is just for you. >> yeah. you know what? after what they did yesterday, adding a columnist of -- well, it's just unbelievable. there's no other word. i think she's officially a prostitute. >> she's a prostitute. you say that word as if it's dirty, mika. good lord. let's bring in right now --

escort. >> let's reward people. >> lady of the night. for acting, well, like people. here is mike allen from politico. >> i don't know what people you hang out with. >> well, mike allen. mike barnacle. the politico playbook. okay. so a guy who may be loathed more than housewives loath tiger woods is joe lieberman and the democratic caucus right now. he's, like, at the switch and shut it down on the health care time and time again. >> yeah. he could collapse the whole bill, one guy. and people are really questioning his motives because he's been for this measure he's now opposing before he's even talked about it on camera. >> in 2000, i think, in the presidential campaign he said he was for expanding medicare. >> and so there is a very strong school of thought on capitol hill that he's doing this simply for spite against the progressives who tried to kick him out of office. >> so he's going to kill the health care bill. that's a question to you. is he going to?

>> no, i don't -- i don't buy that. >> but, no public option. no medicare expansion. so this is going to be a bill that progressives are going to vote for gritting their teeth. >> right. and not only is it hard to see what the path is, but there's a problem with the calendar. there were only two days to spare to get this done by christmas. well, clearly this isn't going to be hashed out in two days. so now you start to think, is the real deadline the president's first year in office, january 20th? is it the state of the union which is probably the end of the month? >> closure of votes on thursday. >> so the president needs to bring back urgency. you mentioned he's going to be meeting with all the senate democrats at the white house today. we're told that his message to them is going to be, this is the last chance to get health care reform. that if he can't get it now with these kinds of majorities, no one will ever even try again. >> never try again. is there any suggestion that the president may suddenly channel

lbj and lean over and say, get this done? harry reid, i gave you an extra month and a half, and you've screwed things up. go back there and pass a damn bill. >> that's the problem. people don't fear this president. >> but find out what lieberman and olympia snowe need to get the bill through and give them what they want and get it through. they could have done that a month ago. >> well, that's what the president wants to do, but harry reid won't do it. why is it that bush got whatever he wanted even from the democratic congress, but this president can't get what he wants from a congress in his own side. >> what the leaders will tell you is that they need to work through this process to get their left comfortable with something that is not what they hoped for. and that you could not have short-circuited this. what republicans are going to say is no one's going to try to remake the world again with one bill. thank goodness. why not do measures that we know will work and try before we try to do the whole system. >> mike, this is a great about what bush did and what this

president is doing. by trying to compromise and please everyone. what's going to be left in this bill that truly brings down the cost of health care in america or insures more americans? >> this is what i've been rattling on my my chair about that the number one problem for this president is disappointment. he'll get it passed, he'll get his good one-year stories. but as this kicks in, it's not going to be what people think. >> and it doesn't kick in. >> taxes. >> so the taxes start early. the benefits don't come for a couple years. mika, the most fascinating thing here is to study this president versus the last president, very unpopular, but george w. bush, he got what he wanted from a party -- >> republicans are more likely to go along to fall in line. the democrats, it's like having two parties up there. people think that the party may wind up being split in our lifetime. quickly one other topic, mammograms being used as weapons on capitol hill, political

weapons. >> this is fascinating. based on that task force study that there was such a backlash against, questioning the need for mammograms early, several candidates, lawmakers are using this as a chance to make the point that each of the parties cares about women. democrats are inserting more coverage for mammograms. you see republicans talking about it on the weekly radio address as a way to connect with women. so it's an issue that used to be something that you wouldn't really talk about. now this task force has given the excuse to do, republicans are even saying, if you like that task force, why not get a whole bunch more? >> why are the democrats trying to use it as this whole health care bill? why don't they talk about it as a jobs bill, expanding for more women in america who do have less health care for men in this country? why don't they make it about women and children? why not make this bill more about insuring more women? >> they keep saying next year's going to be all about jobs. the reason why you can't carry over health care is all about jobs. you're right, make this about

jobs. >> mammograms. >> that was so inevitable. >> no reason why you can't get health care reform. >> forget science. we really care about you. you need all the testing ever imagined. let's spend tens of thousands of dollars. when we come back, mika, we're going to talk about a story our executive producer cares a great deal about. the text messaging case that's headed to the supreme court. also, we're going to show you what's being touted as one of the greatest soccer goals in the history of the english premier league. it was amazing. >> really? >> we'll see it. keep it right here on "morning joe." it's good to be rewarded for your purchases. happily, membership rewards points from american express can be used for over a million things you want... and experiences you'll never forget. and because points don't expire

you can keep them to use whenev you lik can your card say that? to start losing essential nutrients? not long. in fact, green beans lose half their vitamin c in a week. that's why green giant freezes them within 8 hours to lock in nutrients. ho ho ho green giant in the north of england to my new job at the refinery in the south. i'll never forget. it used one tank of petrol and i had to refill it twice with oil. a new car today has 95% lower emissions than in 1970. exxonmobil is working to improve cars, liners of tires, plastics which are lighter and advanced hydrogen technologies

that could increase fuel efficiency by up to 80%.

okay, now here's our holiday gift list. aww, not the mall. well, i'll do the shopping... if you do the shipping. shipping's a hassle. i'll go to the mall. hey. hi. you know, holiday shipping's easy with priority mail flat rate boxes from the postal service. if it fits, it ships anywhere in the country for a low flat rate. yea, i know. oh, you're good. good luck! priority mail flat rate shipping starts at $4.95 only from the postal service. a simpler way to ship. by changing her medicare prescription plan. all we had to do was go to cvs.com and use the free savings calculator. we learned that changing your medicare part d plan could save an average of $612. woman: we just entered my prescriptions, and it compared plans for us. it was easy to find the right plan for the prescriptions i need. your cvs pharmacist can help, too.

come in today, or go to cvs.com before december 31st to find the best plan for you -- at cvs/pharmacy. live shot of the white house before the sun comes up in washington, d.c., this morning. welcome back to "morning joe." it is 6:30 on the east coast and time for a quick look at some of today's top stories. today senate democrats will be heading to the white house for a meeting on health care. the president will be hearing from progressives who are expressing their frustration with plans to strip down the bill in order to gain support of moderates, most notably independent senator joe lieberman. the latest compromise would drop a proposal to allow uninsured americans to buy into medicare beginning at age 55. weather continues to pose serious problems for rescue teams in oregon who are searching for two missing climbers on mt. hood.

officials say a third climber died of hypothermia over the weekend. search crews have been looking for the climbers since late friday. if weather permits, they will start the search again this morning. and the supreme court is set to take on its latest case involving search and seizure in the digital age. it stems from a case in california where a police officer was sending explicit texts to his girlfriend. an appeals court ruled those messages were private even though they were sent on a department-issued pager. as part of the decision, that court acknowledged the need to further explore the law surrounding the fourth amendment in the 21st century. shall we have barnacle do sports? >> let's go to mike barnacle. what's happening in sports? >> you should see the messages willie sends to me. big news in sports, the red sox get john lackey, the phillies look to get key acquisitions. here is nbc's fred roggin.

>> thank you and good morning. the arizona cardinals had a chance to lock up the nfc west with a win but couldn't get it done against the san francisco 49ers. we go to san francisco, pick it up in the second. alex smith connected with first-round draft pick michael crabtree over the middle. his second touchdown of the year. the niners were up 17-0. san francisco's defense was dominant, forced seven turnovers. this one by beanie wells. niners upset the cards, 24-9. baseball, angels' pitcher john lackey appears to be heading to boston. a five-year deal with over 82 million bucks. angels signed world series mvp hideki matsui to a one-year deal. the biggest move comes out of philly. the national league champs on the verge of acquiring roy halladay. the phillies will send cliff lee to the mariners in return for halladay. the blue jays will receive minor league prospects from seattle. a couple plays from around the nba. pacers and magic. vince carter with four pacers in

his face threw up an alley-oop to dwight howard. another look. carter remarkably got the ball to howard for the bucket. magic, 106-98. in utah, deron williams, razzle dazzle on the break, laid it in. williams with a move the globetrotters would have been proud of. unfortunately not enough. timberwolves beat the jazz. from the hardwood to the pitch, something you have to see from the english premier league. off the free kick. watch figueroa catch everybody by surprise. when he booted the ball from midfield over the goalie's head and in. that's unbelievable. take another look. line drive from some 60 yards out, just out of the goalie's reach. a brilliant goal that's being hailed as one of the best ever in the premier league. that's it for me. we'll talk to you guys tomorrow. >> that ball came in and was as big as joe. the goalie should have been able to stop it. there he is. the nation's chris hayes coming up next. a look at this morning's "must-read opinion pages" with us. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. now you can get the latest sony bravia hdtvs,

where you already save. the amazing quality of sony bravia, from the leader in unbeatable prices. save money. live better. walmart. - sure, cake or pie? - pie. - apple or cherry? - cherry. oil or cream?

oil or cream? cream. some use hydrogenated oil. reddi-wip uses real dairy cream. nothing's more real than reddi-wip.

last night, did you hear about this? someone threw a heavy object at the prime minister of italy, silvio berlusconi, which split his lip and broke several teeth. that's what happened. yeah. yeah, it all happened during the italian prime minister's appearance on an episode of "jersey shore." >> welcome back. >> the washington editor of "the nation." >> chris hayes. >> chris hayes. >> joining us now. >> we've got to say, joe lieberman takes a lot of bunk from progressives like chris hayes. >> yeah. you know what? he wants to stick to his guns on the issues. >> you know, consistency. >> got to be consistent. >> politics. it's all about consistency. >> exactly. >> when i ran for office, i said, i swear to god, this

worked great, i am the same today as i was yesterday as i will be tomorrow. >> right. >> boom! joe lieberman is the same way. take a look at joe lieberman three months ago talking about, well, health care. >> my proposals were to basically expand the existing successful public health insurance programs, medicare and medicaid. in the case of medicaid, to allow people who are above the eligibility level to buy into the medicaid system on the theory that it would be up to a certain income limit and the theory they would be able to buy into it at less than the market rate of health insurance. >> total mumbo jumbo. >> chris, that's very exciting. he's what progressives are for, expanding medicare. >> isn't video annoying? >> not for us. look, it's very hard. i think, you know, look. you don't want to jump to the first conclusion that people are operating. >> first of all, let's explain

that his position today is completely opposite of what it was three months ago. >> he said, okay, medicare buy-in. when they crafted this deal, there's two things to note. one, on the substance of the matter three months ago he was endorsing it, right? the second thing to note is that reports have come out that reid called lieberman after this deal was struck in private, right? lieberman said, i like what i'm hearing. right? he gave him the go. you know, the only rational conclusion is that he's doing this entirely out of petulance and spite. >> petulance and spite. >> the senator said the claiming hand of consistency should never rest for long in older statesmen. >> and pat, you say he's sticking it to democrats. >> but don't underestimate vindictiveness as a force in human affairs. >> mike barnacle, joe lieberman really is sticking it to the democrats here. he's changed his position over the past three months. do you agree with chris and pat,

this is about spite? >> oh, i have no doubt -- i have no doubt. i mean, i have no doubt it has to do with everything that happened in connecticut. when he was denied the nomination of his own party, you know, and was failed to be endorsed by chris dodd and other connecticut democrats. had to go through the primary, you know, losing the primary. i have no doubt that it's the natural human nature resentment, yeah. >> i also think it's a little bit of ego, too. there was something that i caught in "the new york times" piece this morning about lieberman that he wants to be at the center of the political aisle. this is lieberman. quote, my wife said to me, why do you always end up being the point person here? he said flashing a broad grin in an interview on monday. >> what makes you so great. >> first of all, i think that, you know, there's a notion that he is traumatized by what happened in the primary. i'm sorry, you're an elected official in a democracy. you run for office. and you endorse unpopular positions. but people vote you out.

the crown was not bestowed upon joe lieberman from on high. >> the point, though, chris, if you're lieberman who's getting attacked by progressives who say let's stick it to lieberman, he's, like, wait a second, guys. you already did that in 2006. you tried to kill me then. >> right. >> and i'm still standing. >> what do you prefer? to be one of 60 guys going along and voting or the guy that stood up and took the whole thing down? >> that's the point. the institutional sense. >> the balance. huh? >> the institutional incentives particularly the filibuster is that if it isn't lieberman, it's going to be someone else because it's so tempting to rush into the vacuum. >> let's talk about that for a second. because i think joe lieberman is dying for the sins of many others if you're a progressive because if it weren't joe lieberman, it would be blanche lincoln. if it weren't lincoln, it would be ben nelson. if it weren't nelson, it would be mary landrieu saying, my god, i'm a progressive and i believe in this stuff, but i'm in louisiana. i think there's a long list.

so there's going to be -- >> why not me? that's exactly right. why don't i take this thing down? if it's coming down, i don't agree with it. a few other democrats, i'll be the guy. >> there are a lot of people that don't like -- pat, you saw this in politics. i saw it, too -- there are a lot of people that don't like being out there by themselves. and i've got to say, i have been there with a handful of republicans. you were covering us then. five or six of us shut down the house because we thought gingrich wanted to spend too much. it's lonely there, and you are hated by everybody including your own side. but look -- but mike, look what lieberman has been through. this is a guy that, my god, he's been through it in 2006. he gave the speech in 2008. i just think, frankly, he doesn't give a damn. >> you know, joe and pat specifically, do you agree with me that part of this, part of what's going on here with joe lieberman and the other senators that you mentioned has potential

roadblocks in the health care debate might have more to do with the diffusion and the lack of party discipline over the last 10 or 15 years than almost anything else in that there's no fear in politics anymore? there's no lyndon johnson. there's no strong president who would call a joe lieberman up and said you're not going to get any public works projects in connecticut. there's no more fear. >> you know, a lot of that has to do, pat buchanan, with president obama and his approach. he has been so defer enshaiffer. and congressman are like kids. they pick it up from day one. this is the pivotal moment in barack obama's first year at the beginning. he sends a stimulus package that brought outlines up to the hill. you have republicans going, i can go along with this. nancy pelosi and the democrats say to him no. they say to axelrod and larry summers in a closed-door

meeting, no, you're going to draft it yourself. they went out. summers said message received. why do you fear a president who defers to you all the time? you don't. >> you know -- >> bush, by the way, let me just say, bush let you know from day one, as a member of congress, that you weren't worth a tinker's damn damn, that you were nothing to him. no, i'm dead serious about this. >> constitutional problem. >> bush treated congressmen and senators like dirt from day one. i'm not saying -- i'm saying that was his approach. but guess what? they feared him. they gave him what they wanted because they wanted bush to bring them in. >> unfortunately he got what he wanted. >> they established who is in charge, who is the big man in this town? who runs the hill and who's on top? and obama has not done that. bob strauss once said, the president of the united states, i think he was talking about george bush sr., these guys are all going into business for themselves, he said. and you've got to put it into

this, george. and he was exactly right. that's what obama has not done yet. >> it's a different type of leadership. i don't think we've seen the end of the story. >> but there's something deeper. >> people want barack obama to assert himself. he had a mandate. he had 52%, 53%. he's got 60 democrats. if you can't win under those circumstances, when can you win? >> i think that's the question. look, i think there's two things, right? there's this personality issue and this leadership style. i think the white house has not been as assertive as they could be, right? but also, you go back to lbj, i was reading a handwritten memo from his legislative liaison counting votes on medicare. one of the big social -- and the guy said, well, we got 54 votes. so i think we'll be fine. think about that for a second. 54 votes. they didn't need 60, right? so there's a combination of a leadership style with an evolution of the filibuster. >> you know, motivating lieberman, there is something attractive in politics about

getting up there and being the guy that takes it down. >> exactly. >> they're all ticked off, so what? >> especially -- >> especially -- >> if you're an independent. >> and if the president called out joe lieberman by name, does the president call him out by name and blame him for what's going on? >> i'll tell you what. i sure as hell would. i would say, joe, i'm not going to let one person hold this up. you said you were for this three months ago. you're not for it now. and i'll tell you what. and i've got to say, i am against reconciliation to do something this big. it may not even be constitutional. but at this point if i'm barack obama, i go to lieberman. i call him up and say, listen. you do that, we're going to take you down in connecticut. i don't care what it takes. and by the way, you're not going to get your way anyway because i'm going to do reconciliation. i'm going to blow this whole thing up. and let's see. let's see if america really gives a damn about senate rules. >> right.

>> because i don't think they do. >> the answer to that is that they don't. >> they don't. >> they don't care. they want health care and they want outcomes. >> if i were joe lieberman i'd say it's me against obama. just stand up to him. the president of the united states. that's great stuff. >> come on, joe lieberman is not vice president and he's not president of the united states. barack obama is the president of the united states. >> i don't care what he is. he calls me up and says, this is what you've got to do, i'm going to do in, i'd say go ahead and do it. >> there is something attractive about that. mike barnacle -- mike, unless you live in a state like connecticut where barack obama's approval ratings are still high. >> go down with guns blazing. >> you know, joe, you're on to it. you've got the president of the united states. you have joe lieberman come down to that oval office. you sit him down and you say, joe, i'm going to turn you into a bad guy in your home state. >> you are going to be the

poster child in 2010. and i'll tell you something else, too, while i'll dishing out free advice for the president of the united states. >> joe lieberman needs republican conservative support if he's going to win. if he stands up to obama, it will pour in there. >> i've got to say, he'd better switch parties. we've got to go. the president also needs to tell harry reid, pass the damn bill. get it done. >> be nice. just get it done. coming up, vice president joe biden will be here on the set of "morning joe." also today, the president and senate democrats make a last-ditch effort to save health care reform. "the washington post" jonathan capehart joins us. and up next, there's a chihuahua problem in california. >> oh, my god. >> i swear to god. >> look at the rat infestation. it's huge out there. >> my goodness. >> the biggest rats i've ever seen in my life. >> what is a problem in california. they are the most unwanted dogs

in the state. and we'll explain why that's a big problem. >> eat them. that's what you do. you shoot them, you eat them. sometimes, the little things in life feel like our biggest enemies. they can be damaged... they can be stolen. theyppily,ouramaged... recent purchases with themecan exprs charge card can be repaired. replaced. your account can be credited. can your carsay that?

somewhere in america, there's a home by the sea powered by the wind on the plains. there's a hospital where technology has a healing touch. there's a factory giving old industries new life. and there's a train that got a whole city moving again. somewhere in america, the toughest questions are answered every day. because somewhere in america, 69,000 people spend every day answering them. siemens. answers.

that's the sound of december 25th. and what do you do when you've got more question marks than check marks? you get 'em a home depot gift card. they can use it in-store or online, which makes the perfect gift because they can pick out what they really want, letting them take your dollars and our low prices as far as they can go. now, that's some stocking stuffer. more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot. check out the new interactive gift card. it's more than a gift card -- it's a 3-d experience. check out the new interactive gift card. "s" stands for straightforward. as in up-front, honest... total transparency. straightforward is the way td ameritrade does business. simple, fair pricing. no hidden account fees. no shenanigans. just good value. real help. smart people who are easy to work with. that's what td ameritrade stands for. what does your investment firm stand for? it's time for fresh thinking. it's time for td ameritrade.

and added a little fiber? sweet! sweet! sweet! (announcer)splenda no calorie sweetener with fiber. now for the first time, a gram of healthy fiber in every packet. sweet! (announcer) splenda no calorie sweetener, starts with sugar. tastes like sugar. but it's not sugar. no calories and a little fiber. how's that taste? (together) sweet! sweet! (announcer) splenda with fiber. imagine life sweeter.

live look at times square this morning for you in new york city. as we are based in washington, d.c., this morning. welcome back to "morning joe." you heard of the chihuahua, pat? >> chihuahua, yeah. it's a mexican dog, isn't it? >> they are the tiny dogs that have turned into a big problem. animal shelters especially in california are reporting a huge number of chihuahuas. nbc's george lewis has the story of how shelters are scrambling to find them homes. >> reporter: call it the chihuahua crisis. out here in california, shelters are putting out the call for help in getting these little dogs adopted. >> we've just seen an incredible increase in the number of chihuahuas. >> but i'm an heiress. >> an hairless? >> no, an heiress. i have a trust fund. >> reporter: blame it on those lovable little characters from

last year's hit movie "beverly hills chihuahua." or the chihuahua in "legally blonde." >> hi, i'm elle woods, and this is breezer woods. >> reporter: not to mention those taco bell ads. >> yo quiero taco bell. >> reporter: and britney and paris. a lot of people thought, hey, this would make a great pet and then had second thoughts. chihuahuas can be high strung and difficult to housebreak which is why many become unwanted. this is petunia. some shelters in california say that fully 60% of the dogs they have up for adoption are either chihuahuas or mixes like petunia. many shelters are shipping them out of the state, even as far as toronto, canada. >> our shelter is not alone in this breed crisis, if you will. and with animal shelters being

saturated with one specific breeder, one breed of dog, it does make it challenging to place all of them. >> reporter: the shelters are hoping their call for help will attract more people like svetlana henderson and her son, martin. >> hi, doggy. >> they're just so cute and they can ride in the car and easy to manage and just, yeah, we have room in our home for another family member. >> reporter: shelters advise that chihuahuas can live for up to 20 years. so they want people to regard adopting them as a long-term commitment. george lewis, nbc news, pasadena, california. >> aww, barnacle. did you see that one in the jacket? those were cute. maybe you ought to adopt one. >> that's what willie is doing. he's walking those dogs all around manhattan. he's a dog walker this week. coming up, why a health care deal that once looked promising is now slipping away. we'll discuss the issue with "the washington post's" jonathan capehart. and savannah guthrie live from the white house. hi, jonathan. >> hello.

>> right here. also, tiger talks. the irony of his last interview right before the scandal broke. keep it right here on "morning joe." green beans. corn. corn. [ female announcer ] it's the most wonderful time of the year, and walmart's here to help. i really should make lists. [ female announcer ] people who spent $100 a week at leading national supermarkets on frequently purchased groceries could've saved $165 in 3 months by shopping at walmart. christmas costs less at walmart. save money. live better. walmart.

christmas costs less at walmart. it can be tough living with copd... but i try not to let it slow me down. i go down to the pool for a swim... get out and dance... even play a little hide-n-seek. i'm breathing better... with spiriva. announcer: spiriva is the only once-daily inhaled maintenance treatmen for both forms of pd, which includes chronic bronchitis and emphysema. i take it every day. it keeps my airways open.. to help me breathe better all day long. and it's not a steroid. announcer: spiriva does not replace fast-acting inhalers for sudden symptoms. stop taking spiriva and call your doctor if your breathing suddenly worsens, your throat or tongue swells, you gehives, or have vision changes or eye pain. tell your doctor if you have glaucoma, problems passing urine or an enlarged prostate,

as these may worsen with spiriva. also discuss the medicines you take, even eye drops. side effects may include dry mouth, constipation and trouble passing urine. every day could be a good day to breat better. announcer: ask your doctor if once-daily spiriva

that is the washington bureau. we are awaiting the vice president who will be on the show this morning live in our

studio. >> we've got a lot to talk about this morning, of course, and a big panel here to talk about it. of course, chris hayes who not only runs the washington bureau for the nation but also will be running joe lieberman's next campaign in connecticut. >> yes. >> also, pat buchanan is with us. great to have you here. and also, jonathan capehart. >> good morning. >> thank you so much for being with us, "washington post" editorial writer. and mike barnacle up in new york, very excited about an acquisition that your boston red sox made yesterday. good morning, mike. >> good morning joe and good morning john lackey. remember the old-town team today. >> exciting. >> love the red sox. >> i'm very excited, our guy. >> our guy. >> our guy is coming. >> we love him. >> this is a no-attack-joe zone. joe biden. >> no, you have to ask him questions. you can't just suck up. >> oh, i can and i will.

i will suck up. how do you not suck up to that man? look at him. >> he's fabulous. >> a fabulous guy. hard-hitting interview. >> we're going to talk about the gamut of issues -- >> a gamut of issues. >> -- that plague this country. we're in trouble and i'd like to see what his advice for the president has been along the way. >> okay. >> and what it will be. >> okay. and i'm going to ask him. we'll go through the news. and pass it around here. >> okay. today the senate will continue debate on health care legislation even as a tentative compromise among democrats appears to be falling apart. independent senator joe lieberman says he'll block the final bill unless democrats remove a proposal to let people buy into medicare beginning at age 55. that expansion was seen as a key compromise to replace a full-scale version of the public option. but even with the growing frustration within the party, majority leader harry reid says he is optimistic about the final vote.

>> we have gone over most of the hurdles. it's like a steeplechase race. the last big puddle's in front of us. we'll jump over that and we'll be to the finish line. >> that is not -- >> what is that? >> that is not a man, chris hayes, cut out to be spokesman for the democratic party of the united states senate. >> what is that? >> he's always wrong with his predictions. he said he had 60 before, remember, on the public option. he's wrong every time. >> i don't -- it's very hard to look at this whole thing and think that he has done an excellent job in managing this through the senate. i mean, he's got an incredibly difficult job. >> what grade would you give him? you say not an excellent job. "b" minus. >> "b" minus, "c." i'm a generous grader. i'm a bleeding heart. >> inflation. you, the president, everybody. >> that's right. >> it's like harvard. i should have gone to harvard. >> the lieberman issue, are they going to get this through ultimately? >> they're going to get something through.

but it's going to require the president of the united states, jonathan capehart, to take control and be assertive in a way he hasn't been this year. >> you kind of wonder what's going to happen in the meeting they're going to have today. at some point the president and the administration's going to have to say, look. enough with the games. here's the bill. here's what i want in it. i mean, that's -- he's going to have to come off the fence and say, instead of just saying get this done, get this done with "a, b, c, d and e" in it and let's call it a day. >> pat, if i'm president of the united states, even though i'm against reconciliation for a bill like this personally, but if i were in barack obama's position, i would know one thing. if i failed with health care, my presidency would be crippled at least for the next year or two. i would do whatever it took to pass it. reconciliation. do you agree? he's got to blow up every bridge if that's what's required to pass a health care bill and pass it soon. >> exactly. look, the country doesn't really know -- you know, this option is, 50 or 60, something like that, get it through, do what

you have to do. that's exactly what reagan would do. what i would do today, joe, is get reid and get snowe in there and get joe lieberman and say, will you go with a public option with a trigger? and if they say yes, go back down to the hill and pass the thing the way they should have done it a month ago. >> i've got another one for you guys. i'm confused as to why this is just starting now, it appears. but several banks are planning to step up lending to small businesses. after coming under tough criticism from president obama. now, the white house, of course, has been trying to shame the banks of late. bank of america, wells fargo and jpmorgan are planning to kick start new efforts to support economic recovery. it follows a white house meeting yesterday and a sunday night interview where the president described wall street executives as fat-cat bankers. here is press secretary robert gibbs. >> i think that the bully pulpit can be a powerful thing. the next time the president job

owns you, you'll, i guess, get the same feeling that they have. i don't know if he'll do it in quite the form he did it on "60 minutes," but i think the president -- i think the american people understand that the president was clear. >> chris hayes, the bully pulpit is a powerful thing. how powerful is it? >> it's not powerful at all. first of all, the bankers have shown themselves as a class to be sociopathic indifferent to the results of their actions. frankly, i found the whole kabuki kind of sickening because the notion that you're going to urge banks to do more lending, persuasion to get these massive institutions chao have showed absolute disregard for any social benefit and that one meeting with the president was going to change things is ludicrous. >> hold on a second. there is this small concern that banks have to have. >> yes. >> and that is how much money they have on their balance sheets. they got in trouble by loaning money to people who couldn't repay the loans.

>> justification for the bailout. the original justification for the bailout was that we need credit flowing through the system, we need it going to small businesses, to people who want to make investments. the actual measures of all those are down. >> but look. joe is exactly right. these guys are in business. they were black jacked into giving all these subprime loans, pushing these things out the door. no documents and all the rest of it. it almost brought them down. and now you're telling them to go back and do the same thing again. i don't blame them. they're in business to make money. they're in business to make money. >> they're in business to make money, but the problem is that people who -- the people with good credit, the people who need the loans to create jobs, they're not getting it. >> but no, the people with good credit, let me say, if joe or mika went down there to buy a million-dollar house, they look at their credit rating, they'd say fine. but if you come in there and you've got a shaky credit rating, they say, we've done that and we're not doing it anymore. >> safety credit maybe but somebody with good credit. somebody with good credit can't get a loan these days.

talk about reid's steeplechase. people are jumping through more hoops to end up with a negative result. >> harry reid is not a middleburg man with the steeplechase and all that stuff. these guys have been burned horribly. they've got to be responsible to their shareholders, to their board. if they go start lending stupidly again, they all ought to be thrown out. >> you know what? >> the public can adopt the motto in the midterm, these guys have been burned horribly about the bankers. if that's the way the republican party feels -- >> because they were burned, okay? i mean, they gave them all the cash, but they haven't given me back any of the cash. >> what kind of system do we have here? >> it's called capitalism. >> well -- it's a very debased form of it if that's what it is. >> the nation's going to tell us how to build a capitalist system. >> mike barnacle -- >> karl marx. >> as our bank representative, it has to seem rich. mike gets his allowance, of course, from a bank. >> yes.

>> but, mike, it seems -- it does seem strange to a lot of people on the banking side of things that they got in trouble because washington, d.c., pushed them to give loans over the past ten years to people that couldn't afford to repay those loans. and now they're being pushed that way again. >> well, you've got a couple of things going on here, joe, it seems to me. on the one hand, the bankers are afraid. they're afraid of loaning out money to people who are marginally credit worthy because they have the regulators on the one hand saying you have to have your capital reserves built up before you can loan the way you used to loan. and, you know, the other hand, they have the president of the united states calling them fat-cat bankers. so they're caught in the middle. they are also, i would have to tell you, clueless as to the anger and resentment that there is out there in the country towards them. because a lot of people have no jobs and no money. >> absolutely, mike barnicle,

but joe, don't these banks at this point have a moral responsibility to try and help out, whether it be troubled homeowners or people with loans, given the fact that the taxpayers didn't help them out? >> this sounds harsh, but all the world's a stage, all right? and if -- if your role is to be ceo of a bank, your responsibility flows to your board and to your shareholders to make sure you give responsible loans. and the fact that you make record profits when main street is going under, well, that is morally offensive to all of us. but to a ceo running a bank, he or she is doing his job because it is to shareholders. it is the responsibility of politicians in washington, d.c., chris hayes, i would suggest, to not give trillions of dollars out to banks a year ago and allow this to take -- i do not blame bank ceos for acting like bank ceos. i blame washington, republicans

and democrats alike, for signing a blank check saying here's the money and not requiring anything a year ago -- >> i agree. >> -- to give back to main street. >> i agree. i think we should hold the sort of damacles over their heads for as long as possible. >> here's the problem. washington was in a rush, like they always are, whether it's going into iraq or this bailout. if we don't get something done today, it's going to be the end of the world. so we're going to sign three pages. and just give trillions of dollars to the treasury and to the fed and ask no more questions. are we shocked a year later when we rush into that legislation that this is happening? >> look, two things, joe. two things. first of all, you sound like a moron arguing on behalf of the banks which i'm not doing, really. but if you read the economic journals, you'll find out that small business loans in this country, while they are being small businesses are receiving

some loans, they are suffering a 20% default rate, small businesses. 20% default rate. that's one thing that's going on. the other thing that's going on is that it's the easiest thing in the world -- and i've done it a million times -- is to take shots at bankers and fat-cat capitalists, economic royalists, it's been going on for years. but you ignore the fact that there hasn't been a really cohesive, workable jobs program coming out of washington, d.c., and the obama administration yet. that has to do with the economy. put people to work. they get a paycheck. the banks will loan them money. >> but we are apt too big to fail all over again. aren't there fewer banks? aren't they bigger? >> yep. >> aren't we setting ourselves up for the same fall all over again? >> not only that, jonathan capehart, the banks are bigger than they were a year ago when we were all critical of too big to fail. they're making bigger profits than ever before. which also is staggering.

but nothing's changed -- i mean, for instance, greenspan has been crucified over the past 18 months for keeping money at such a cheap level, right? well, it's cheaper now than it ever was under greenspan. >> it's free. >> it's free now. aren't we making the same mistakes all over again? >> well, i mean -- >> yes. >> -- it seems like it. >> no, it seems? yes, we are. >> yes, no. >> yes. >> i would like to defer to my spokeswoman. yes, we are in trouble all over again. it was a mistake to give all this money to the banks and not put some provisions -- conditions on it, to help working people. my concern is, you know, when we talk about the economy and the executive and the president, some of the conventional wisdom is, the president doesn't really have any control over the economy. and so when i hear someone say, barnicle just said, there hasn't

been a coherent jobs program to come out of the white house, i want to know, what does that look like? and how exactly do you get the banks to do it? now, the president brought the banks in yesterday. called it this kabuki show, shaming them into loosening up credit, but -- >> what does that do? >> -- what does it do? >> you're not going to shame them. chris, you don't think we're in trouble. >> no, i think we're in trouble. i think there's two things to separate out here. one is, i agree at a certain level that the incentives are such for ceos, bank ceos, to do what they're doing. and if i were a ceo and i also had some sort of conscious liboto libotomy, i would be doing the same thing. >> if you had been burned a year ago. >> yes, we need to change rules and regulations. not one republican, not a single solitary one voted for the regulatory bill that just came out of the house. >> did you like that bill? >> i think it was nowhere near strong enough, but that's not the reason republicans weren't voting for it. number two, cheap money may have

been the problem in 2005 and 2006, but with 10% unemployment, it's not the problem now. >> they're not giving loans out to people who need them. you know at least one of the things they're doing is they're finding the least risk people out there and offering them loans, refinancing, whatever it takes, for free so they can get those numbers up. >> but look. >> you speak from experience. >> i just saw yesterday the student loans, it's 20% to 30% default. what are these bankers supposed to do? >> i think that's a good question. >> now, your nation, have you guys ever made a profit at "the nation"? >> one or two years. >> never. >> and you guys -- >> don't even. >> raking it in. >> "the washington post," what are you socially responsible of shutting down all those bureaus, buying them out? when you're losing money, you've got to do tough, hard things to save the company. that's what these banks, a lot of them are trying to do.

there are many tough guys, you're right. they don't have a great social conscience, but that's not their job. their job is to save that bank. >> it's a great debate. >> barnicle, it's so sad. here you have buchanan still engaged by what woodward and bernstein did in '72, '73, '74. making poor jonathan capehart pay for the sins of "the washington post" to the nixon administration. >> fighting for the working people losing their jobs in bureaus around the world. >> there you go. thank you, pat buchanan. coming up next, health care hits a wall in the form of joe lieberman. how much of the senator's reversal has to do with his spite against his former party? is it spite? i mean, come on. find out in this morning's gaggle out at the white house with savannah guthrie. and a little later, vice president joe biden right here on the set. we're waiting for his motorcade to arrive any minute now outside the nbc news washington bureau.

plus, a major consumer alert this morning. it involves tens of millions of -- >> not a big motorcade, just one car. i'm joking. go ahead. >> -- window blinds that could be dangerous. it's actually a serious story. details coming up. first, here's bill. >> good morning. warm temperatures in the east. no problems. just a sprinkle or two from boston to new york today. it will be warm and cloudy. enjoy it while it lasts. that new york forecast, we take about 15 degrees off the temperature wednesday, thursday, friday. no snow in the forecast, by the way, but it will be cold and it will be windy. breaking news out in louisiana. numerous schools are closed today because of flash flooding. new orleans, it's had seven inches of rain in the last 24 hours. that will be a story to watch during the day today. also, these windchills are brutal. oklahoma city's at four. we're at negative three in kansas city. we're at minus 16 in minneapolis.

and all of our friends on the west coast, a storm still brewing. we've got rain coming in. i know lots of you have been following that story on mt. hood with the stranded hikers. it's still snowing hard and windy on top of the mountain this morning. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. [ laughs ] what do i get my wife? [ note plays ]

yes, she does. [ ding ] you guys rock! yeah, we do. [ male announcer ] smartphones, plans, and no annoying mail-in rebates. the best gifts come from best buy. because with national, i roll past the counter... and choose any car in the aisle. choosing your own car? now that's a good call. go national. go like a pro. to start losing essential nutrients? not long. in fact, green beans lose half their vitamin c in a week. that's why green giant freezes them within 8 hours to lock in nutrients. ho ho ho green giant

around the table, all the financial industry executives said they supported financial regulatory reform. the problem is there's a big gap between what i'm hearing here in the white house and the activities of lobbyists on behalf of these institutions or associations of which they're a member up on capitol hill. i urge them to close that gap. >> okay. i urge them to close that gap. >> that's a good way to call them a big old bunch of hypocrites. >> now, now. >> i had to moderate what i was

going to say there. >> shaming people into action, or lack thereof. >> you know what? if i'm a ceo, i'm looking at my bottom line. i can't be shamed. >> well, you know, that's a shame. >> no, no. ceos, it is not their moral responsibility to sit around going, well, gee. let's see. who can i give loans to and not worry about whether they pay back the loans? again, this is why we have a government. >> make it so they could corrupt it and gain from everybody else's losses, yes, actually. >> you know what? you know what? we're going to go to savannah guthrie in a second. can you pull up "the washington post" editorial today? i think at this point when you're talking about corrupting the system, i think at this point actually adding some stubborn facts into this equation over banks, it might be helpful. by the way, for the record, i'm not sitting here shamelessly defending the banks. i'm offended that wall street has had record profits over the past year.

>> here it is. >> no, i'm explaining what's going on here that we're just focusing on the banks. it's not just the banks' problem and fault. >> "washington post," it's not strictly true that the banks caused this crisis by themselves. they had plenty of help from consumers who lived beyond their means, from a federal reserve that supplied money too cheaply in the early part of this decade and from a bipartisan political push for home ownership that encouraged fannie mae and freddie mac to gamble with public money. in short, banks need to change their ways, but so do the politicians. now that wall street and government are doing less business with each other, they may find it easier to work together. and that is a fair, fair point. >> you know what else is a fair point to make while the president's sitting here acting shocked and stunned and deeply saddened? that nobody got more money over the past three to four years from 2005 to 2008 than did

barack obama from freddie -- fannie mae and freddie mac executives. other than chris dodd, the guy who is supposedly running the reforms. in fact, you can look at the people who got the most money, and they're the ones here now that are beating their chests the hardest, acting shocked and stunned and deeply saddened. i'm not pointing the finger specifically at the president. i'm saying it was a systemic failure so everybody needs to be really careful about being so morally self-righteous towards a group of bankers. if we want to play huey long games, we can, but it's b.s. the default is shared across the board. >> "a," it's, i think, complete revisionism to lay it on fannie and freddie. >> you are alone in saying that. >> no, i'm not. >> progressives are alone in saying that. >> we were last into the subprime pool. the first people were all private lenders. something like 20% of the subprime loans are actually in

the end coming out of fannie and freddie. they were yanked into it because that's where the market was driving. it was not led by government. it simply is not the case. >> 1999. >> the fact of the matter is what's happened in the wake, conservatives looked around and said there must be a government failure here. which one is it? >> i can show you a "new york times" article, speaking of revisioni revisionism, from 1999 with bill clinton in the white house and democrats started pressing fannie and freddie and others to give loans to people who could not afford to repay those loans, saying in 1999, if we go this direction, this is what's going to happen. >> but the numbers don't add up for that to bring down the system. >> they bought up all that rotten paper. these guys were making the loans and they're buying them up, turning them into security. >> we're getting yelled at. >> we're glet's go to savannah and change the topic. savannah, today the president

talks health care. yesterday he was talking to the fat cats. today he's talking to the dumb dogs. he's going to bring them in, and they're going to try to figure out how to pass a health care bill in a city that democrats own. what's his message going to be to harry reid? >> reporter: you know, it's basically going to be it's now or never, democrats. how is anyone going to try to accomplish health care reform if we can't do it now with these kinds of majorities? so if obama were more of a skull cracker, it would be skull-cracking time. but that's not really his style. but he's going to put it as bluntly as he possibly can. this is the time to overcome differences. all the democrats are expected to be there. joe lieberman is expected to be there. and look, i mean, they are really up against it in terms of the calendar. they do not want to see health care stretch on and on and on into the new year. we've seen what it's done to them in the polls. so the president's going to have a pretty stern message for democrats today. >> well, joe, what you and savannah have set up seems to be a real test of whether or not the president's form of

leadership is effective. >> well, i think there is a time for being deferential to congress and there is a time to crack skulls. savannah, do you think this president, this white house, do they have it in them to tell joe lieberman, to tell harry reid, follow my lead? do what it takes. pass health care reform now. >> reporter: i think that the president's going to say, get a deal done. and i think they will work with lieberman. i think, really, at this point, all the optics are, they just want this done. get it done one way or the other. medicare buy-in, fine. public option with a trigger, fine. just get it over with. i think that's what the president will tell them. >> savannah -- >> you're not inflecting anything there. >> get her done. savannah, let me ask you this. >> get the story over with. >> we're talking about presidential styles, what lbj would do in this situation, what

nixon would do in this situation, reagan, on and on. it seems to me that the president is not feared by harry reid, not feared by members of congress just like the generals don't fear him either. they say -- they tell generals and admirals, don't ask for more troops. and the next day they go out and they ask for more troops. does this president have a problem of being loved more than feared in washington? >> reporter: well, yes. and at the moment i don't know if he's loved or feared necessarily because of progressives are very unhappy with the way this health care debate has gone. but look, you have to understand, the president's demeanor, this organizing principle for himself, the thing he talked about as why he ran was because he views himself as a consensus builder. it's not his tone or demeanor to go in there and shake everybody up and rail against them and get everyone spun up. >> isn't that rahm emanuel's job? isn't there somebody at the white house that takes him to

the wood shed? >> reporter: yeah. and by many accounts rahm emanuel does that. but the president, that's not going to be his style as much as we may want it. yesterday with these bankers, for example, we had seen how he was on "60 minutes" where he was frustrated and angry. and he took a different tone with these bankers. i call it sometimes the disappointed parent routine because it's kind of that scolding, i'm disappointed. >> that works real well. >> and he told them, you guys are like overpaid ballplayers except for you didn't have a winning season. that would have been fine if you had a winning season. you had a terrible season. and the american people are sick of it. he speaks in blunt terms, but he doesn't get all fiery. >> you know, mika, my parents never tried the disappointed parent role on me because it wouldn't work. my parents tried the, i'm going to beat hell out of you which was more effective. >> i got that. >> and it seems that maybe the president needs to do that. i'm curious, though -- >> i think the story isn't over yet. we'll see what happens. >> will the president be the

disappointed parent tonight when savannah guthrie shows up yet to another christmas party invited and drunk? >> well, she's going to be -- >> savannah? >> reporter: yes? >> are you going to be sober tonight when you go through the front doors of the white house? >> reporter: yes, i am. >> we worry about you. >> reporter: yes. >> the whiskey flask. >> savannah, what are you wearing? i'm thinking of wearing a red sari-type thing and straighten my hair. what do you think? >> reporter: i think you should. be sure it bears your midriff. >> okay. >> reporter: that's like as good as an invitation, just gets you right in. >> i'll see you there. >> thank you, savannah. see you tonight. coming up next, the president's year-end ratings are now at record lows. we'll break down those poll numbers with former white house press secretary "vanity fair" contributor dee dee myers. a major recall involving

millions of window blinds sold at some of the biggest stores in the country. we'll tell you why straight ahead on "morning joe." also, the vice president of the united states will be at the nbc news washington bureau where we are broadcasting live this morning. >> that is a beautiful shot.

somewhere in america, there's a home by the sea powered by the wind on the plains. there's a hospital where technology has a healing touch. there's a factory giving old industries new life. and there's a train that got a whole city moving again. somewhere in america, the toughest questions are answered every day. because somewhere in america, 69,000 people spend every day answering them. siemens. answers. ♪ [ female announcer ] arthritis targets your body

where it's weak. where it's vulnerable. ♪ tylenol arthritis works with your body to block the pain, without interfering with certain high blood pressure medicines like aleve sometimes can. ♪ so you don't just feel better, you feel better knowing doctors recommend tylenol more than any other brand of pain reliever. ♪ hey! announcer: you don't drive every time you smoke. yet you smoke every time you drive. driving and smoking don't have to go together. re-learn life without cigarettes, free, at becomeanex.org. a new way to think about quitting.

welcome back to "morning joe." just after 7:30 on the east coast and time for a quick look at some of today's top stories. today the obama administration will announce its plan to transfer as many as 100 terror suspects to a state prison in northwestern illinois. it represents a major step toward closing the guantanamo bay prison in cuba. although critics suggest the move may increase security concerns, supporters say it will bring thousands of sorely needed jobs to the community. former vice president al gore is warning the u.n. climate conference in copenhagen that polar ice is disappearing faster than thought. he says new research suggests the arctic ocean may be nearly ice free in the summer in as little as five years, much sooner than the forecast by a u.s. government agency just eight months ago. and in developing news this morning, a massive recall is being launched for 50 million

roll-up blinds and roman shades. now, this comes amid new concerns they pose a serious risk to children. nationwide there are reports of at least 16 cases where children were strangled. eight of those cases were deadly. the consumer products safety commission says customers can receive a repair kit to make the window coverings safe for children. coming up, joe lieberman's flip-flop on health care. what a difference three months makes. we'll be right back with former white house press secretary dee dee myers here on the set. >> here she is. >> how are you? nice to see you.

by changing her medicare prescription plan. all we had to do was go to cvs.com and use the free savings calculator. we learned that changing your medicare part d plan could save an average of $612. woman: we just entered my prescriptions, and it compared plans for us. it was easy to find the right plan for the prescriptions i need. your cvs pharmacist can help, too. come in today, or go to cvs.com before december 31st to find the best plan for you -- at cvs/pharmacy. "s" stands for straightforward. as iup-front, honest...tota.

straightfoarishe way td ameritrade does business. as iup-front, honest...tota. mple, fair pricing. no hidden accounes. no shenanigans. just good vae. alelp. art people w are easy to rk with. at's what td ameritrade stands f. what does your investmen firmtand for? at's what td ameritrade stands f. it's time for fresh thinng. it's time for td eritrade. (laughter)

my proposals were to basically expand the existing

successful public health insurance programs, medicare and medicaid. in the case of medicaid, to allow people who were above the eligibility level to buy into the medicaid system on the theory that it would be up to a certain income limit and the theory they would be able to buy into it at less than the market rate of health insurance. >> on one part of it, the so-called medicare buy-in, the opposition to it has been growing as the week has gone on. i certainly would have a hard time voting for it because it has some of the same infirmities that the public option did. it will add taxpayer costs. it will add to the deficit. it's unnecessary. >> i must say, it is hard to square those two. >> you know what? oh. you can't. >> oh, okay. with us now, contributor editor of "vanity fair" dee dee meyers.

>> maybe she can square it. >> i am so glad i'm not trying to square that. sit here and go, flip-flop. it's a flip-flop. >> now, we're going to the white house tonight. and we're going to get our pictures taken because of you. >> well -- >> i understand the president wasn't getting his pictures taken. you said this is something that he should do, and they've started getting the pictures taken at these christmas parties. >> right. i understand it's an exhausting thing for the president and first lady to stand there for hours with hundreds of people every night through the holiday season. i think every president, you know, it's both a blessing and a curse because you do get to see a lot of people that were there for you, that helped you, that cover you every day. and people really love it. >> when they shook my hand. joe scarborough. >> even joe scarborough, right. even joe scarborough. >> the bushes love me, too. >> i think after not doing it -- >> i'll tell you what, there have been a lot of awkward christmas parties for me.

>> and not just at the white house. >> wherever i go! >> he takes it with him. no, i think it's great. i think it's good for the president ultimately to make those personal connections. >> so like if another couple like the salahis show up, they'll have more pictures. >> exactly. you want them to get on facebook right away. >> perfect. >> we want to show you, the president has had a rough year based on gallup's comparisons to other presidents. let's put up his approval numbers. he's at 49% right now. disapproval is up to 46%, obviously a precipitous drop since the beginning of the year. actually 49d% doesn't look so bad to me these days. let's compare where the president is today to other presidents at the end of the first year. gallup claims that this president has had the lowest approval ratings of any other president. do we have the other chart? okay. t.j. is passed out in the control room. you've just got to take our word for it. you were looking at the numbers

before, pat buchanan. >> yeah. >> but what's happened? why has this president, at the end of the year, he has progressives disappointed in him, conservatives enraged with him and independents running away from him. why is that? >> well, i think it starts with 10% unemployment. you know, when president clinton had a tough first year. but the country was coming out of a recession and building jobs. so that was helpful. there was a lot of other controversy. but he at least had that. then he took on. he inherited a huge mess. not only a war in iraq but a war in afghanistan which he's now had to ramp up, and health care has been -- he's decided from the beginning he was going to spend some of his political capital to try to pass health care, and he spent it. he spent down from 64 -- >> climate? >> no, i think he felt he was elected to do big things. if that cost him a second term, so be it. that's the attitude he went in with which i think is admirable to a certain degree. now we'll see if he passes

health care, and i think he will. >> what does that say about democratic presidents that when they come in trying to do big things like clinton about in '93 and '94, they get punished. bill clinton's numbers started going up '95 to 2000 when he took on smaller items. >> right. because as you know, from being in congress, the political system is not structured to do big things. it's much easier to stop the train than to ram it through no matter how urgent the necessity. you know, everyone agrees that the health care system is unsustainable the way it is. and yet when you get to the point of trying to fix it, what happens? this is the same kind of train wreck we saw. and you saw that dan pfeiffer at the white house saying this morning, if not now, never. because you're going to have two presidents go down on health care. democratic presidents try to take this on, both of them, end up in a train wreck? what does that say to future democratic and republican presidents? >> don't try it. >> don't try it. >> i wonder if we're in one of these only nixon can go to china circumstances where a republican

president, the next president, if it's a republican, has to say, okay, here's the deal. we're going bankrupt. medicare's going bankrupt in a couple of years. medicaid's going bankrupt in a couple of years. your health care system as you know it is going under. can it only be a republican that goes after health care? of course, he or she -- >> i think that's right. i really believe that. look, the democrats can't do it with 60, you need some republican support. and if you get a republican president there and he gets part of the republican party, he can put together the democratic party with it. i think only a republican can get this through if it's not done this year, i think you're right. i think dee dee's right. 10% unemployment and one-tenth of all mortgages are under water. they're four months overdue or in default. and the people expected the program, the stimulus, to do better. and it hadn't. i think that's why -- >> the mortgage program? >> that's where reagan was, 49%, but his disapproval was lower. >> i talked to people in business who tell me that things are bad right now. but though fear the next wave is

coming in. and it has to do with commercial real estate that's going under next. it was homeowners first that got hammered. and businesses have held on, held on, held on. but they say they see this wave coming. jonathan, they think the second wave's going to be devastating and going to put a lot of them out of business. >> sure. so then that begs the question, how do you stop that? if everyone knows that this is going to happen, what can anybody do to stop it? does anybody know? >> well, the problem is, we don't have another $2 trillion or $3 trillion to throw at the problem. >> one of the arguments the vice president is going to make is how the recovery act is actually working. and he's going to have new statistics that he has put together with the economic team that shows that there is some improvement. i mean, look. to an extent, it all is slow in coming. it all can't happen tomorrow. but the question is, what about those people who are hurting now? >> there are obviously some good numbers out there.

but if the commercial real estate, if these malls really that are in bad shape just start going under one after another -- >> tyson's corner. >> tyson's corner's got empty stores up there. this is high-end stuff in malls in middle america that are gone forever. the consumers aren't spending. they don't have the money they used to. they can't borrow like they are used to and not spending like they used to. >> dee dee, i've made progressives angry over the past year drawing comparisons to '93 and '94, but there are so many parallels. you have bill clinton who came in in '92, and he tried to do big things. he got shut down, and the idea of being a transcendent president died in early 1995 because of the deficit, because of the debt. it seems to me that this president is also going to be operate i operating. he doesn't have money to spend. he understands that. >> right. >> so what's a progressive do? >> well, i think the next year's going to look different than the next year. the first year was about economic recovery and passing

health care because if you don't do it in the first year, you can't do it. if health care gets done and ultimately signed maybe in january, then i think he's going to turn his focus to creating jobs. how do you do that without a lot of money to spend? that's the challenge. part of it's hammering on banks to small businesses. i don't know how well that went yesterday. >> that pew peterson report which is the deficit in "the washington post" said the situation is dire on debt. >> it's gotten bad. >> dee dee myers, thank you very much. good to see you. >> appreciate it. >> we appreciate it and hope you'll come back. also, we'll send you our pictures. >> i'm going to wear a red sari with my midriff showing. and i'm going to straighten my hair. what do you think? >> i think it's a great idea. >> extensions? on it. >> make sure you wear your little pin that says "washington redskins alumni cheerleader." >> perfect. i'll do the same imitation that she did, a terrible one. we're minutes away from vice

president joe biden here on the set of "morning joe." >> that is -- that is from "hogan's heroes." >> very foggy out. we'll be right back. mika brzezinski is here, i believe, in the house. mika and i have a lot in common. we both have partners named joe who used to be in congress and don't know when to stop talking. the great taste of splenda® no calorie sweetener and added a little fiber? sweet! sweet! (together) sweet! (announcer) now for the first time, a gram of healthy fiber in every packet. sweet! (announcer) splenda® with fiber. yet a lot of natural gas has impurities like co2 in it. controlled freeze zone is a new technology... being developed by exxonmobil... to remove the co2 from the natural gas... so we can safely store it... where it won't get into the atmosphere. exxonmobil is spending more than 100 million dollars...

to build a plant that will demonstrate this process. i'm very optimistic about it... because this technology could be used... to reduce greenhouse gas emissions significantly. ♪ wells fargo has been putting our clients first. according to a leading independent research firm, in 2009, clients rated wells fargo advisors the #1 u.s. investment firm for doing what's best for them. with advisors nearby and nationwide, we're with you when you need advice and planning expertise

to meet today's challenges. wells fargo advisors. together we'll go far. ♪ cartoons duringch hoops far. your big meeting, and breaking news when it breaks. watch real tv whenever you want. you don't need to get a phone. you need a phone that gets you. smells good. it's a cookie exchange.

we're baking up holiday spirit to share with friends around the country. you know, priority mail flat rate boxes from the postal service makes shipping simpler than no-bake peanut cluster. if it fits, it ships anywhere in the country for a low flat rate. so sending macadamia moos to miami costs the same as sending sugar trees to sante fe? same price for snicker doodles to spokane or pumpkin pinwheels to poughkipsee. okee-dokee. okee-dokee. priority mail flat rate shipping starts at $4.95, only from the postal service. a simpler way to ship.

it's front-page news this morning in seattle. today boing hopes to finally test its revolution new airline of the 787 dream liner. nbc's lester holt went behind the scenes to learn more about the plane that could carry up to 250 people 9,000 miles nonstop. >> reporter: production bottlenecks, a strike, even a fix to an unexpected structural problem have failed to undermine the belief among many airlines that once in service, the boeing 787 could be a game changer for their struggling industry. >> the design of the aircraft, the way we positioned it in the marketplace, has been such it's been able to take advantage of a real "c" change in the way our commercial customers think about the future.

>> reporter: airlines are desperate to cut the cost of doing business, and because the 787's wings and fuselage are made of lighter, stronger plastic composites instead of aluminum, it uses a lot less fuel. the cabin can be pressurized to a lower altitude, and because it's more corrosion resistant, allows to more cabin humidity. >> the flying public are much less fatigued after a flight on the 787. >> reporter: this mock-up shows what hopes will be a crowd pleaser. oversized overhead bins, a sweeping arched entryway and lighting. >> reporter: another thing that will catch your eye, the windows. they're considerably large. also, no more window shades. you can go from light to dark electronically in just a minute with the push of a button. the design goal says boeing put the magic back in flying. >> how can we design an airplane that brings the outside in a little bit, that connects people with the fact that they're in the air. >> reporter: a philosophy that

extends to a futuristic cockpit that gives pilots a better view too. >> a good example is the large format earth sky display. without even looking, you can see that display move out of the corner of your eye. >> reporter: the way the 787 is built, in sections by suppliers all over the world has also broken new ground, but turned out to be the program's achilles' heel. >> we were disappointed in the past couple of years by not having the airplane when we said we would. that adds a piece of pressure. >> reporter: a complicated supply chain brings a fully assembled wings, tail, to boeing's plant aboard a fleet of modified 747s. >> we'll have to operate to very good on-time records to keep our production system going. >> reporter: anything that can disrupt the complicated supply chain from earthquakes at factory sites to an ill-fitting part is now worked out at this

command center. with almost 900 orders for a plane that hasn't taken off, boeing recently broke ground on a second assembly line in south carolina, as it looks to finally put the embarrassing delays behind it and the ground far below the 787. >> i think you're going to hear a huge round of applause. that's what you'll hear. >> well, it's quite a plane. coming up next, the vice president of the united states, joe biden, right there in washington, d.c. on the set of "morning joe" with joe and mika. that's either vice president arriving or joe scarborough coming back from starbucks with his entourage, right there behind.

somewhere in america, there's a home by the sea powered by the wind on the plains. there's a hospital where technology has a healing touch. there's a factory giving old industries new life. and there's a train that got a whole city moving again.

somewhere in america, the toughest questions are answered every day. because somewhere in america, 69,000 people spend every day answering them. siemens. answers. alright, best buy. [ male announcer ] last minute is no problem. at best buy you can get this 10-megapixel insignia camera. the new "harry potter" on blu-ray. the latest video games like "tony hawk ride" rated e10+. all of the 2010 ea sports titles rated e to t. or a gift card good for anything. the best gifts come from best buy.

hey, welcome back to "morning joe." joe scarborough with you along with mika brzezinski and who's that guy? come on in. >> come on in, mr. vice president. >> mr. vice president, good to see you. >> hey, joe. >> mike barnicle up in new york. mike, have you ever seen a man more beautiful? he glows. >> john, listen to him. >> barnicle glows. >> barnicle glows as well. >> the greatest reason to be

proud to be an american. >> we are shameless here. >> thank you so much for coming here, mr. vice president. we're joined in the studio right now by vice president joe biden. great to see you. >> good to be with you guys. >> i promised you tough questions. we'll start with the one, what makes you so great. you are in a -- no criticize joe. >> i'll tell you what, i'm staying there. this is the only place i could find. including home. >> oh, that's nice. you can now stop sucking up. >> i'm not sucking up. you've got some news today. we're talking about unemployment at 10%. a lot of people concerned about a second wave of foreclosures in commercial real estate. but you say things are turning around. >> well, i think they are, joe. look, we were in a pretty darn deep hole and building this ladder and climbing out has been difficult. what everybody initially said, this recovery act, it's a waste, it's not working. i find it interesting now, it

worked, you know, it worked, the federal government's carried us this far and they can't keep carrying us. the point we're making today is what we've done is we basically primed the pump. we came up with $80 billion in investments and a new technology that's going to be the kind of thing that's going to take us into the 21st century and it's generated $150 billion in private investment. so it's a little bit -- i'm sorry, go ahead, mika. >> mr. vice president, just to follow up on what you're saying, though, because you delivered a report to the president along with the economic team that shows how the recovery act actually is working and will be working. we have some numbers that we can present your statistics, like renewable energy and energy grids. renewable energy causing -- making 250,000 new jobs. energy grids will create 43,000 jobs. the question is, how long will that take? and what about the people who are struggling now? >> well, first of all, it's going to take somewhere between the next month and the next two years for this to get locked in. it takes a while to build these

grids. it takes a while -- let me give you an example. we invests about $450 million with a company that wanted to buy a general motors plant that had been shut down, was deploying 1,900 workers. they shut down, closed it. well, this outfit came along, call eed fiskar. they went out and took a risk, another $1.5 billion, they went and bought the plant. they'll be employing 2,000, 5,000 total, 2,000 at that general motors plant. the generic point i want to make is what we're doing is, we're not, this is not building a new economy, we are generating the kind of investment from the private sector. once they realize we're in the deal. it's like these train sets, joe. you and i talk about trains. >> right. >> so here you go. you've got all these high-speed trains tar being made in spain and france and other places. well, when they realize we're committing $8 billion for a high-speed rail, they're all

coming and saying, wait a minute, well, maybe we'll build a facility to build our spanish trains in detroit. we'll build them in ohio. because now they know we're committed. it's like, mika, we had in little old delaware, we came along and said we're going to build wind farms 17 miles offshore to generate electricity on the delaware shore. up to that time, no one had any interest in it along the shore. the federal government said, we're in the deal. we're going to prime this. now you have megawatt upon megawatt. every state in the east coast is saying, we want to build those facilities. once you realize they're in -- i'm sorry to go on so long. but it's the story of every innovation that's occurred in america. whether it's the internet, put a little money in, it generated interest. a little bit of money being put in for infrastructure from everything from gas stations to highways. that's as we view it, not as the government doing, but generating interest in the public sector. >> let's move from jobs to health care reform. >> oh, boy.

>> no, no, you know what i'm going to ask you. you worked with a guy named joe lieberman for a very long time. you like joe? joe a good guy? >> say it ain't so, joe. >> what's going on? is this about democrats turning on him in 2006 and now joe's saying, it's my time to get revenge? >> you know, i honest to god don't know. what i learned from mike mansfield when i first got there, never question another man's motive. question his judgment. i think joe's judgment is wrong in this. but you've seen it across the board. you know joe, you and i both served in the congress. great big bill coming up. everybody figures their maximum point of leverage is right before the deal's made. so you've got everybody lining up out there, saying, yes, i'm willing

>> a lot of gamesmanship going on right now. in my experience, for 36 years in the congress, and every major initiative, this is the norm rather than the exception. >> do you agree what some are saying in the white house this morning, if health care does not pass now, it will never pass not in this administration or any democratic administration. >> when you say now, if you mean between now and christmas or now and the first quarter -- right, i agree with you. if health care does not pass in this congress, and every day gets closer to the election as opposed to to having more

breathing room to actually have discussions in and real open fights here, it is -- it makes it, it's going to be kicked back for a generation. >> you know the old political saying, it's better to be feared than loved. is barack obama feared by anybody on capitol hill, or does he have the problem of being loved more than feared. >> well, i think people are, on the hill, if they don't fear him, are underestimating the steel in this guy's spine. this, to him, is the single most important thing to get done now. and i think any democrat who decides for their own shallow purposes, if that were the case, to scuttle this, is not going to have -- the southern parts of our state, joe, not going to have a friend in the lord. >> yeah. can we move on to afghanistan? >> one quick question, though, before we get to afghanistan, because i know you want to take -- >> because i know this would be a shock to a lot of people

watching, that two joes would dominate the conversation like this. >> exactly! >> i think the president made a comment about that. at one point. but i'll just jump in really quickly, before we move on to foreign policy. in terms of these ideas and concepts that the recovery act will be putting forward to create jobs in order to get these ideas to follow through, small businesses and people with new ideas need loans. and there is still this problem with the right part-time getting loans so that the economy can now recover. and the president shaming the banks, because you asked about whether or not people feared the president. is shaming the banks going to work, or what is it going to take to get the loans out there, but also to prevent too big to fail once again? >> well, three things need to happen. one, we need financial reform to deal with the last part, too big to fail. >> right. >> and that is -- and they're spending a lot of money to make sure we don't get that reform. one of the messages the president delivered yesterday

is, you say nice things to me about the need to have reform, yet you hired millions of dollars worth of high-paid lobbyists to make sure nothing happens. so i don't have any faith in these fellas not all kind of wanting the reform we want. but the second is -- and that's going to be a fight. that's going to be a flat-out fight and the president's ready to have that fight and we'll win that fight. but the second piece is the central piece i hear everywhere i go, mika. hey, look, i have a nonperforming loan, or a performing nonperforming loan. in other words, i've never missed a payment, but all of a sudden the banks say, my credit isn't good enough. that's particularly happening to small and medium-sized businesses. they're the ones that generate jobs. if you're general electric, you have no problem borrowing money now. if you're dupont, you have no problem borrowing money. so what the banks have done, they've capitalized again and they're in a position they actually have the reserves to lend the money. they're being overly cautious about lending to mainstream. and so what part of what we're

trying to do is three things. one get them to relook at the way they're doing this, so they maybe change their mind a little bit, what they're going to lend, who they're going to lend to. two, reduce the restrictions they have. because the regulators have been really hard. the regulators, i heard you this morning, joe, look, if you come and you're a guy that has -- you're not going to get the loan. so you've got to have the regulators be a little -- loosen up a little bit on these guys, so they're more inclined to loan. and thirdly, as they begin to -- now they have begun to make a lot of money and they paid us back, by the way, they paid back the taxpayers tens of billions of dollars, get them into the mood of looking at those, not just automatically saying, well, no, these are small -- we're not going to look. to begin now to say, okay, are they creditworthy? and move. i think this is a process, mika. people say, why did you bail out

the banks? what we did was we saved the american economy. those banks that nobody likes, i got in trouble, joe, for saying, it would be more popular if i introduced legislation saying protect rattlesnakes in arizona than to help the bankers. but if we had not done it, had they collapsed, the entire economy would have collapsed. we're 10 months into this deal or 11 months into this deal now. we've made remarkable progress. we had a minus 6.2% gdp when we took office, it's now 3.5 and growing. it's hard. >> let's move to afghanistan. i want to show you a chart. you've expressed skepticism, even before you were vice president, with the government there. very famously having a very tense meeting with president karzai in afghanistan. i want to show you a chart, and this is u.s. troop levels in afghanistan through 2009. over the past year, they have

jumped from 33,700 to 68,000. next year by midsummer, they will go up, all the way up to 98,000. look at how that number goes straight up for a war, mr. vice president, that you, like myself, like mike barnicle, like a lot of people on both sides of the aisle, have great skepticism towards. you look at that arch, going straight up. you've got to be disappointed that that's where we are as a country. >> let me tell you what i'm happy with. if you put that back -- >> put the chart back up, guys. >> if you put that chart back up, you're going to see that chart coming down as rapidly over the next two years. the president made it absolutely clear, i sat with him when he looked at each of the generals, and he said, gentleman, here's the deal. i am going to allow you to surge and i want you to do it quicker than you had planned. these additional 30,000 troops. but here's the deal. december of next year, we're

going to assess whether this proof on concept has worked. we're not going to be discussing if we add a single new troop. the only issue will be, how rapid do we begin to draw down those troops in july of 2011. joe, when you and i have talked both privately and publicly, i have said i am much more concerned about the strategy and rationale than i am about the actual numbers. and the strategy has fundamentally changed. this is not a corn strategy. this is not go out and occupy the whole country. this is not a rebuild afghanistan strategy. this is not a strategy guaranteeing 400,000 avenfghani train. this is not a strategy that says we're going to ensure the taliban is al qaeda therefore we must defeat every taliban fighter. so it's a fundamental change in terms of the strategy. secondly, the president has, for the first time, laid out what he thinks is our clear national interests. defeating al qaeda and

stabilizing pakistan. >> and defeating al qaeda in afghanistan? >> al qaeda's not in afghanistan. >> because i was just going to say, and you made this great point privately, which we repeat, time and time again, if the problem's in pakistan, which every foreign policy expert that we have come on this show says, the real problem is in pakistan, then why are we -- and again, general jones said, there are only 100 al qaeda fighters, maybe, left in afghanistan. why are we spending, and great point that you made here, 50 times the amount in afghanistan as we are in the country that you and i and dr. brzezinski and richard haass and everybody else knows is a real problem, pakistan. shouldn't our focus be on pakistan? >> yes. and our focus should be pakistan and al qaeda in pakistan and pakistan's nuclear weapons. but, look, am i going too long?

>> no, no, not at all. >> look, they are a strategic interest. al qaeda and a stable pakistan. but in the service of those two interests, we would be in real trouble if, in fact, a vacuum is created and there's chaos in the government in afghanistan falls. no one knows what that -- no one knows what the iranians do with that. no one knows what the paks do with that, no one know what is the chinese do with that, no one knows what the indians do with that. so this surge is in the service of stabilizing pakistan -- i mean, stabilizing afghanistan to allow us to do the job in afghanistan -- excuse me, with al qaeda and with pakistan. and i am -- we're in constant contact -- the pakistanis have a long way to go. but, joe, if i had told you a year and a half ago, or you,

mika, that, you know, musharraf was going to be able to step down without bloodshed, an election without bloodshed, a peaceful transition, and a year later the pakistani army in its history was moving into the federally administered territory, that it actually worked with us to get rid of baa t baitullah mehsud, would it be enough? no, but when they went and took the swat valley, all of a sudden the pakistanis went, whoa, they're 60 clicks from islamabad. so this is a process and the process is working. and that's why you're going to see, i believe, joe, over the next two years, more direct assistance to pakistan as it relates to stabilizing their economy, building their infrastructure, as well as getting them to move on our mutual interest, which includes the hakani network and includes

the taliban in pakistan. but this is a hell of a process. >> final question. let's go up to new york with mike barnicle. mike? >> mr. vice president, in terms of afghanistan, i've spoken to several marines come canning back from afghanistan, no one knows more about that country on the ground than you do, in public life. they continually raise the problem of the afghan army, which will be there to stabilize and secure the country after we leave, after that line comes down. they repeatedly tell me, one of the problems is that the afghan army, the officers as well as the soldiers, they don't even have the simplest of things like a pension plan in place. how do we prod the afghan government to do more on behalf of their army, their soldiers so that we can remove our soldiers. >> joe, we're doing that. we're talking about increasing the pay. we're talking about -- and by the way, a piece that those marines will tell you about is the police.

the police are corrupt, the police are disorganized. one of the reasons is, you can go work for the taliban and get twice as much a month as you do being a police officer. so we're in the process through general eikenberry, our ambassador, of getting the -- that's why we're focusing on three ministries over there. one is defense, the other is agriculture, and the third one is their department of the interior, their justice department. the ones that have local control over the local police forces. but, look, can i say one thing to you, mike? the president has made something exquisitely clear to each of the generals. he said, do not occupy any portion of that country that you are not confident within 18 months you're going to be able to turn over to the afghans. do not occupy what you cannot turnover. and because what we don't want to do is our military can do anything we tell them. they can go in and occupy every village and pacify the entire country and then we own it.

we do not want to own afghanistan. we just want to make sure that the taliban is diminished significantly enough so that the afghan government can contain it and get about the business of ridiculous. last point. if you notice, you did not hear a word from karzai in his inauguration about the taliban being the enemy. because he views them as disgruntled brothers of the pashtun tribe. and he's right about that. 20% of these guys we're going to have to kill. the other 80%, we're going to have figure out, they are part of the fabric of the pashtun culture. wally pashtun in that part of the world. so this is a -- we've got to make it clear, and we have, to the afghans, you're about to have control of your country. lots of luck in your senior year. we are not going to be staying there. we've got to get that across. >> all right, mr. vice president, great having you

here. and you've got a busy day, including an issue that i focused on a lot on the judiciary committee, protecting intellectual property. that's -- >> well, you know from your days, that's a hard, hard sell. and we are finding it -- what we're doing for the first time is bringing in every single agency in the government that has some jurisdiction over this and trying, for the first time, to try to get a coherent, complete commitment from each of the agencies of dedicated resources to deal with this. it's a multibillion dollar theft every year of american intellectual property. >> and hopefully we'll see you tonight. >> i hope so. >> all right! thank you for coming on the show. we've been waiting a long time. >> all right. have me back. >> all right. we'll be back with our political roundtable, including eugene robinson and christopher hitchins to talk more about our discussions with the vice president. you're watching "morning joe." announcer: in today's markets

how can you get your retirement plans back on track? consider oppenheimerfunds, whether the markets are up or down, we follow a consistent investment approach. ask your advisor about oppenheimerfunds. and see how our numbers can help you reach your destination. call your advisor for a prospectus with complete fund information. read it carefully and carefully consider fund investment objectives, risks, charges and expenses before investing. mutual funds are subject to market risk and volatility. shares may lose or gain value. oppenheimerfunds. the right way to invest.

because with national, i roll past the counter... and choose any car in the aisle. choosing your own car? now that's a good call. go national. go like a pro. and added a little fiber? sweet! sweet! (together) sweet! (announcer) now for the first time, a gram of healthy fiber in every packet. sweet! (announcer) splenda® with fiber. green beans. corn. corn. [ female announcer ] it's the most wonderful time of the year, and walmart's here to help. i really should make lists. [ female announcer ] people who spent $100 a week at leading national supermarkets on frequently purchased groceries could've saved $165 in 3 months by shopping at walmart. christmas costs less at walmart.

somewhere in america, there's a home by the sea powered by the wind on the plains. there's a hospital where technology has a healing touch. there's a factory giving old industries new life. and there's a train that got a whole city moving again. somewhere in america, the toughest questions are answered every day. because somewhere in america, 69,000 people spend every day answering them. siemens. answers. owwww.... (announcer) not just sinus headache... but pressure... and congestion. (announcer) you need a sinus medicine ooohhh... that rescues you from all three symptoms introducing new sudafed pe® triple action™. for more complete relief from the sinus triple threat. get more complete relief. with new sudafed pe® triple action™.

also find sudafed® behind the counter. never question another man's motive. question his judgment. i think joe's judgment is wrong in this. but you've seen it across the board. i'm confident that joe is going to see the light. i'm confident joe's going to vote for a final bill here. but there's an awful lot of

gamesmanship going on right now. and in my experience, for 6 years in the congress and every major initiative, this is the norm rather than the exception. >> all right. vice president joe biden leaving the nbc news washington bureau, making his way through the hallway. >> good luck. >> yeah, really. that's our booker. she likes to talk. >> with us now, the host of msnbc's "andrea mitchell reports," andrea mitchell also back with us. contributing editor of "vanity fair," dee dee myers and mike allen. the vice president says never question a man's motives, question his judgment. there are a lot of democrats today questioning joe lieberman's motives and they're not happy. >> joe biden may have to change his name. one of the things they are talking about as a serious threat if they could get it through the senate parliamentary is 51. they are actually talking about

reconciliation. the house is standing poised to do that. it's a senate choice, though, because reconciliation that whole budget framework as you know better than anyone, came out of the senate. the senate would have to decide to do that. that's the ultimate, stripped down, bare bones, let's do something, it's better than doing nothing. but they don't want to do that. and i think that joe biden, having been up there for more than three decades thinks that there's something out there in the water, you heard him say it, that you could draw the horses in when they finally have to make a decision. but, clearly, joe lieberman is shaking it up. >> dee dee myers, they've got to pass something. >> they do have to pass something. >> anything. >> one of biden's great contributions, i think, to the white house, is having been there. he understands the rhythm of the senate. and he said, this is how it always gets in the short strokes. and everything gets really crazy and it all falls apart right before it comes back together. which one of those guys wants to be the one that kills health care for good? >> i remember 1993, bob kerry was the man of the hour, he held

out on the clinton white house on that historic budget deal. >> and he did not want to vote for that bill. he came in, you know, there was this whole thing where he came to the white house and at the end of the day, he voted for it, because he didn't want to be the guy that brought it down. >> politico's mike allen back with us. >> let's talk, mike allen, though, about the realities of the connecticut politics. joe lieberman represents a lot of insurance companies up there. we're not saying he's bought or paid for, i represented a lot of military districts in my district, so of course i was more pro-military than someone from, say, oregon. so lieberman, can't he afford to get away with thumbing his nose at the president and thumbing his nose at health care reform? >> people thought he was posturing for reason you were talking about and people are like, he's not really going to light the car on fire, and he did. but what strategists are telling us is that the it, the anything they're eventually passing, is we'll go back to the future, back to september to the finance

committee bill, the max baucus bill, that probably is what we'll wind up with 60 -- just to rewind. that means that state run these cooperatives. there's no new national bureaucracy. there's individual and employer requirements, but they're not as strong in the house. >> a trigger, an opt-in, an optout, what is it? >> there will not be a trigger. states will be able to opt-in and have their own plans, but it's so much different than the house, that house progressives will have to swallow very hard to take this. this doomsday argument that you guys have been talking about, no other way to get health care, that's what they'll have to push in the house. >> nancy pelosi will get it done. >> whatever they pass -- >> this is the smartest, toughest politician we have seen in these parts in many, many years. when it comes back from the senate in the stripped down -- there's no way you're going to be able to finesse and call it a public option. it's not going to be in there. and she will get the progressives to sign on. >> and she said as much. she said, we're going to get

this done. she's unequivocal about it. i think you're right. the progressives know that she's been fighting for them hard. and when push comes to shove, they'll have to rally. >> he's been fighting. but if you're a progressive, this reminds me of where we conservatives were in '95 and '96. swift passings in the house, would be killed in the senate, go to the president, eventually, and come back unrecognizable. and we would say, way, 74 of us got elected, if we can't do it now, we can never do it. take health care reform, and i don't know if you saw the chart, if you can get the chart up on afghanistan, troop levels in afghanistan have skyrocketed since barack obama became president. gone from 33,000 to about 68,000. this next year they go from 68,000 up to 98,000. this is from 33,000 in july of bush's last year to 68,000 at the end of obama's first year. look what happens next year when it goes up to 98,000. that is a line straight up.

progressives have to be scratching their heads going, what good is it owning washington if everything that we hate gets enacted. >> right. there's no question, there's a tremendous amount of disappointment about that. but i think to a great degree, the members are going to be able to separate that from health care when they're trying to, again, work through the short strokes. and also, i think the argument that almost nothing, none of the big things that have been done over the last 60 or 70 years have been done perfectly in the first shot. you get the major architecture in and then you go back and you fix it. i think we'll hear a lot about that, particularly with the progressives. don't think this is the end of the story. let's get this big piece done and then we'll go back and fix it next year. >> but mike allen, you're out of money. what are they going to spend money on when the president knows the next state of the union, according to politico, he's got to lead with a deficit. >> and they're trying to say next year will be all about jobs. it's a problem. the money argument is the way the democrats will be able to

fight the afghanistan surge without having it be about national security or without having it be about troops. they're going to end up going for it. but they'll try and cement that july date. they'll try to get the administration to say what they've not been able to do. we saw the vice president this morning trying to make it seem more certain than secretary gates has made it sound. they're trying to get what the vice president said this morning in concrete. they're not right now. >> secretary gates seems much more flexible, as does hillary clinton, than does the vice president? >> well, they came at the whole question of afghanistan from completely different perspectives. with he being much more reluctant, much more skeptical about the surge. i think what happens in the house with the progressives when it comes to afghanistan is, they don't really have a shot at this. because it's embedded in defense bills that they haven't even voted on yet. so when they get to defense spending later this year, it's going to be very hard to vote against an entire mammoth defense appropriations bill just to try to pull out this money

for afghanistan. >> but joe's right. they're going to try to extract pain. because speaker pelosi will tell you that the last war spending bill was the hardest bill that she's ever done. she said it was harder than climate. which, as we know, was very difficult. >> i think it's adversity and opinions about that we're seeing from the administration. it's actually really refreshing and could be really constructive. coming up next, senator dick durbin will join us on "morning joe." we'll be right back. also, is sarah palin pulling a 180 on climate change? >> and from "the washington post," eugene robinson will be here to explain that in a few minutes. the same impressive highway fuel economy you get in a mini. now, in a not-so-mini size. the all-new gmc terrain. with an epa estimated 32 miles per gallon highway.

may the best car win. ♪ [ female announcer ] get the taste of a home-cooked meal at work with new marie callender's homestyle creations. marie callender's homestyle creations -- a little touch of home for lunch.

1,400 lbs of cargo. but only one can do it while driving on electricity. the gmc sierra hybrid. the most fuel-efficient full-size pickup on the road. may the best truck win.

barack obama feared by anybody on capitol hill? or does he have the problem of being loved more than feared?

>> well, i think people are -- on the hill, if they don't fear him are underestimating the steel in this guy's spine. this, to him, is the single most important thing to get done now. >> wow. vice president joe biden on the show earlier. we can finish that conversation -- >> you're being cut off. >> with us now, democratic senator from illinois and majority whip leader -- majority whip, senator dick durbin. senator, thanks so much for being with us. we want to talk about illinois prisons, but first, as the democratic whip, i've got to ask you the same thing we asked vice president biden, what's your take on joe lieberman? why is senator lieberman doing what he's doing to this health care reform bill? >> well, senator lieberman expressed himself sunday that he was concerned about several provisions in the bill. and we have been working with him and with the caucus since. we are moving towards 60.

we think we'll have it by next week. we had a great positive caucus last night. the fact that we are going to be bringing down the rise in health care costs for 90% of american families, providing insurance for another 31 million uninsured americans, giving people a fighting chance against insurance companies when they have to go into battle over pre-existing conditions, there are so many positive things in this bill, i think we can see our way to pass it and make things significantly better for most families. >> senator, how do you explain, though, to progressives who support you not only in illinois, but across the country, that in your institution, one man can stand in the way of a medicare buy-in, one man can stand in the way of a public option. and of course, conservatives would always ask that when republicans were running. but what do you say to angry progressives who said, we elected you guys and you're not giving us what we want. >> well, i could just tell you

that i am one of those progressives. and i support the public option. but i can count. and in the senate, you need 60. and if you don't have 60, you're empty handed. in this case, we need to find a way to get to 60 votes. and that means accommodating and making concessions on a lot of issues we'd rather not make concessions on. >> is reconciliation not an option? why don't you blow the whole place up and just say, majority rules, 51's enough. what's the downside of that? what would you tell progressives, what are the long-term ramifications of that? >> we've been blowing things up on this issue for decades. and as a result, we've accomplished nothing. reconciliation is a very spare and thin process with limited opportunities. for example, no insurance reform if we do reconciliation. we won't give american consumers the tools that they need to fight back against the health insurance companies. and i think they understand, as we do, that's a very, very important element in this package. >> senator, the other big story pertaining to your state is this plan to transfer 100 prisoners

from gitmo to a prison in your state. there's going to be an outcry. you can already hear it, about security concerns. and i guess you weighed that with the jobs that will be created in the area, but how do you -- how do you square away the security concerns that many will have? >> let me tell you about the outcry. in northwestern illinois, it's a bipartisan, overwhelming outcry in support of the federal government buying this prison that's never been opened in thomson, illinois, putting in about 1,600 prisoners in a regular prison system and fewer than 100 detainees from guantanamo, creating 3,000 jobs, more than half of them local employment. and all the construction jobs that go with it. we have a state with an 11% unemployment. we need those jobs. they're good-paying jobs with good benefit packages. you can build a family, a neighborhood, a town, a community with those kinds of jobs. we want them. and i'm not concerned. i've met with the highest levels of people from the intelligence agencies to the security agencies.

this will be the most security prison in the united states of america. we can hold these prisoners safely. today, we hold 300 -- >> senator, though, senator, what about those who will say, you are trading security for money? for money to come at your state. >> we have 340 convicted terrorists presently being held today in american prisons, being held safely. i am not concerned about this. i've talked to the guards. i've talked to people who are involved in it. we know, and i've been there personally. we know we can hold them. the people who are spreading the fear are not listening to the folks who are in charge of security and in charge of intelligence. >> all right. senator dick durbin, thanks for coming on the show. come back soon. >> glad to be with you. sure. >> lots of luck. thank you so much. bill clinton getting into a little trouble, taking prisoners from cuba, didn't he? >> yeah. and some of them broke out and obviously it was an ongoing political -- >> for the election. >> that was a one of the big

issues, absolutely. but there's never been an escape from one of these supermax security prisons in this country. they are unbelievably secure. this is kind of a local decision. the people in the community support it. >> and they need the jobs. >> and they need the jobs. up next, "vanity fair" columnist christopher hitchens and "the washington post's" eugene robinson joining us for our political roundtable. gentleman, how are you? i've been growing algae for 35 years.

most people try to get rid of algae, and we're trying to grow it. the algae are very beautiful. they come in blue or red, golden, green. algae could be converted into biofuels... that we could someday run our cars on. in using algae to form biofuels, we're not competing with the food supply. and they absorb co2, so they help solve the greenhouse problem, as well. we're making a big commitment to finding out... just how much algae can help to meet... the fuel demands of the world.

nowhere you already save.t sony bravia hdtvs,t... the amazing quality of sony bravia, from the leader in unbeatable prices. save money. live better. walmart. cartoons duringch hoops your big meeting, and breaking news when it breaks. watch real tv whenever you want. you don't need to get a phone. you need a phone that gets you. what doctors recommend for arthritis pain... in your hands... knees... and back. for little bodies with fevers... and big bodies on high blood pressure medicine. tylenol works with your body in a way other pain relievers don't...

so you feel better... knowing doctors recommend tylenol more than any other brand of pain reliever. to start losing essential nutrients? not long. in fact, green beans lose half their vitamin c in a week. that's why green giant freezes them within 8 hours to lock in nutrients. ho ho ho green giant

because what we don't want to do is our military can do anything we tell them. they can go in and occupy every village and pacify the entire country and then we own it. we do not want to own afghanistan. we just want to make sure that the taliban is diminished significantly enough so that the afghan government can contain it and get about the business of reconciliation. >> with us now, associate editor and pulitzer prize-winning columnist for "the washington post," eugene robinson, who has an op-ed piece accusing sarah palin of flip-flopping on climate change. also with us, columnist for "vanity fair," christopher hitchens. christopher, you and gene both spoke with the vice president outside after he let the set.

i was struck by how inflexible he was on afghanistan regarding what happens 18 months from now, which i personally see as a positive. gates, a bit more flexible. and clinton, the same. who wins that battle? >> all of them. all the same, resolve to be irresolute, adamant adrift. they all say, here's how we're going to strengthen our hand, we'll tell you what day we fold it. i think this is ridiculous. there's a bit of wiggle room about dates and so forth, but eventually, regret psychological weapon, the taliban possess is their ability to go around the villages at night and say, remember us, we'll always be here. the americans have already told you they won't. whose side are you going to join now? what's essential to the vice president outside was, why did he only mention the name india once in the whole of what he said. >> you think india -- >> and by the way, he said he happened to mention two

countries, the other one being iran. these are the two decisive countries geopolitically, they dominate that region. and if we resume doing what this president has stopped doing, which is make a firm strategic alliance with india, as well as the economic and culture and political one we should be building, are building anyway, from silicon valley through a number of other things, they have the same enemies as we do. they were supporting the northern alliance before we were. they will always be there, long after the taliban have gone. >> gene, pakistan, one of the most unreliable partners. they feel the same way about us. >> almost completely unreliable. and to put all your eggs in that basket. to say, oh, gee, we're going to go with the pakistanis is, seems to me, not a tremendously wise thing to do. the interesting thing was, as we were talking with the vice president, i mean, he understands the importance of india in this whole equation. yet, that doesn't get squared with the kind of, we don't want

to own afghanistan, we just want to rent it indefinitely idea that seems to be the policy right now. >> and what is the goal in afghanistan? what is our goal? ten years from now, we could be there, but ten years and one day from now, the taliban will still be there. >> some sort of stable government, even though there's never been a stable government, that does not play host to al qaeda. and it's not -- i don't see how that happens. they think that the way they do it is to shore up pakistan as well, on the other side of the border. but we see from the reporting today, jane perless in the new york time, pakistan is resisting to go after the hakani network, which has been in league with the pakistani security network, and they don't want to go after their brothers either. pakistan is also playing this game and getting a lot of money in the bargain. >> the taliban is focused to begin with. taliban is the name given to pakistan's proxies in afghanistan.

proxies always wanted a carny across this border to give itself strategic depth with the war they think they're going to fight with india. that's where they have all their troops. the vice president was saying to me just now, they have all their troops on the wrong border, the one with india. >> that's what they care about. >> moving your troops where they're not menacing one of our best friend and attack one of our worst enemies, no, even if you play us. >> gene, you wrote today about sarah palin, one of your favorite subjects. saying that she was a hypocrite. she flip-flopped on climate change. >> actually, i was praising her. i found that when she was governor of alaska, she actually did several reasonable things and said lots of reasonable things about climb change. which she just attacked as ludicrous and ridiculous in an op-ed in our paper last week, urging president obama not to -- >> t"the washington post" took

lot of flak for running that op-ed. >> i'm glad "the post" ran a piece. and she did acknowledge while there are some changes in the climate, but it's natural, as far as we know, and no one's proved it's man-made. when she was governor of alaska, she set up a high cabinet-level task force to deal with climate change, because they're living it. they're not imagining what might happen when things warm. >> and if you look at what she said in the debate with joe biden, she actually was very much more forward leaning from the point of those who, you know, support the obama initiative on climate change. but that debate is something that she has completely run away from now. >> don't be too hard on her. she didn't write that piece and she probably hasn't even read it. >> i knew that was coming! >> i read a long piece the other day saying, everything she does is for effect. she's always denial. she can switch back in a minute. at the moment, she thinks that

the tea party crowd want to hear this kind of thing, so she'll say that. she's been out to say, well, i don't know, but i think the president ought to be -- i'm not saying. later, because she's got to go to the gridiron dinner in washington and learn how to use a knife and fork. >> okay, christopher! you are naughty. >> she's a disgraceful opportunist and a real moral coward. >> this is terrible, chris. >> are you sure you're being clear about how you feel? >> he wouldn't mince words. >> we've got to go. but really quickly, another bomb blast in iraq -- >> the president was monstrous in the way she did her retreat was even cheaper. i couldn't decide which was worse. >> i'm sure we're clear. >> so she's doing the same thing on climate change wouldn't surprise me. same with the alaskan independence party, same with turning up at the pat buchanan rally. there's always another story. if you don't like the first one, eve got another one. >> happy holidays to you.

>> my goodness! >> merry christmas. "o" is for objectivity.

one of the basic principles of td ameritrade. it means you help investors... you don't just sell them. it means no hidden agenda. td ameritrade always has...always will... put the investor-- you--first. that's how they work. that's how they deliver objective investing help. that's what td ameritrade stands for. what does your investment firm stand for? it's time for fresh thinking. it's time for td ameritrade. that's the sound of december 25th. and what do you do when you've got more question marks than check marks? you get 'em a home depot gift card. they can use it in-store or online, which makes the perfect gift because they can pick out what they really want, letting them take your dollars and our low prices as far as they can go. now, that's some stocking stuffer. more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot. check out the new interactive gift card. it's more than a gift card -- it's a 3-d experience.

welcome back to "morning joe." we learned so much today. mika, what have you learned? >> well, more on our interview with vice president joe biden on

nbcradio.com in just about an hour. >> andrea mitchell, what did you learn? >> joe biden is the key on whether they get health care reform, because he knows the senate. >> and norah o'donnell came in to show us her guns. what did you learn? >> the afghans, good luck in your senior year, wow. >> good luck in your senior year. >> that was good. >> joe biden's incapable of walking through a room without working it. oh, i knew that! >> and i fear, christopher higgins. >> i was so overpowered by the repu charm that i forgot to say what norah said, it's quite shocking, how are the afghans going to feel, in a few hours from now, good luck in your senior year. >> i think the afghans will be surprised at that and i think a lot of people in alaska will be reading your words. >> someone who claims to know

the pashtun way, as the vice president, shouldn't be condescending. >> that wraps up our broadcast. if it's way too early, what is it, joe? >> it's "morning joe." now on to dylan and "morning meeting". >> thank you, joseph. good morning to you. my name is dylan and this is the "morning meeting." on our agenda at this hour, democrats selling out on the medicare buy-in after joe lieberman said he would not vote for a health care bill with pit. the president summoning all democrats to the white house today. who is running the show on the health care legislation? we'll ask democratic senator amy klobuchar momentarily. then, show us the money. big banks pledging to step up lending after their white house meeting. and we've got a reality check on all that bonus talk you've been hearing. why, suddenly, are they all paying back the t.a.r.p. money? and trying to leave the dream this morning, msnbc news anchor and enthusiastic lester holt is trying to live the dream

talking about the boeing's new 787. it's 9:00 a.m. pull up a chair and join the "morning meeting." snchts all right, lots to get through this morning. governor spitzer back with us. amy klobuchar will be with the president later today. jonathan capehart, you can there from "the washington post." i mentioned governor spitzer. nbc anchor, lester holt, and white house correspondent, savannah guthrie. lots of developing news on the health care front this morning. first off, senate democrats meeting with the president this afternoon. right now they're trying to pass a bill without the 60 votes they need. that's tricky. and guess who's standing in the way? senator joe lieberman, at this hour, who left the democratic party, but is still a crucial vote. he says, no way on a bill with a medicare buy-in. and just like